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Can A "good" Muslim be a good American?

LadyEagle said:
Y

I tried to choose links that did not have a Christian bias, because I have been accused of providing Christian bias towards islam links in the past. If you prefer Christian links, then I will post those. But the subject matter is much the same because the subject matter is based on written history as well as what islam teaches.



Then I would not lead her to read the title of this thread. The OP of this thread asks a legitimate question that is applicable to our nation and the influx of political ideologies (and that is what islam really is) that are diametrically opposed to our way of life and democracy as we have known it.

BTW, there is Christian persecution in Azerbaijan going on right now. I pray you will be able to show this girl Christian love and the Gospel. In fact, you might want to consider purchasing the Jesus Film for her - it is available in most languages of the world and many muslims are discovering the truth and finding Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior through the Jesus Film ministry - all over the world. They are raised in a religion of violence and works and oppression and suppression. The testimonies of the ones coming to Jesus Christ are amazing and they are amazed to discover the One True God, Jehovah, loves them enough to send His Son to die for their sins, that He was not just a prophet as they have always been taught, but truly He is the Son of God.

http://www.jesusfilm.org

This may be true, but we had a missionary stay with a muslim family in Azerbaijan not long ago. They were very hospitable with him. I may be wrong. Maybe I should just tell this girl to forget it....... that we don't want any "good" muslims living with us. That would probably be the "Christian" thing to do. Maybe we should pull our missionaries out of the Islamic nations. yeah.... that is probably the thing to do. i'm sure Christ would approve of that.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
RB, the "good" in the OP would have been more accurate by stating "loyal", what I think was the point. If you are a "good" american, that means simply you are loyal and support the USA. In this context, a "good" muslim would be loyal to the Quran, Mohammed and Islam. If this person is a "good" (loyal) muslim, that totally contradicts with being a "good" (loyal) american, as we are the enemy!

The girl you are hosting would be well informed in reading this thread, IMO (if she's too young, maybe not). It would be an eye opener for certain! They are brainwashed into thinking that decapitating and murdering infidels is "good" in the eyes of Allah. Comparing Scripture with the Quran would put islam in the light it needs to be in...satanic.
 
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LadyEagle

<b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
reformedbeliever said:
This may be true, but we had a missionary stay with a muslim family in Azerbaijan not long ago. They were very hospitable with him. I may be wrong. Maybe I should just tell this girl to forget it....... that we don't want any "good" muslims living with us. That would probably be the "Christian" thing to do. Maybe we should pull our missionaries out of the Islamic nations. yeah.... that is probably the thing to do. i'm sure Christ would approve of that.

Is there really a need to respond with bitterness and sarcasm? I tried to be supportive of your missionary efforts by telling you about the Jesus Film. You responded with sarcasm.

BTW, it isn't just missionaries being tortured and murdered in islamic countries. Many of those people, probably most, are ex-muslims who have turned to Jesus Christ. Muslims believe that once you are a muslim, especially if you are born a muslim, you can never leave islam. Perhaps prayer for all the muslims suffering under the demonic oppression of islam would be more fruitful than sarcastic retorts.
 
LadyEagle said:
Is there really a need to respond with bitterness and sarcasm? I tried to be supportive of your missionary efforts by telling you about the Jesus Film. You responded with sarcasm.

BTW, it isn't just missionaries being tortured and murdered in islamic countries. Many of those people, probably most, are ex-muslims who have turned to Jesus Christ. Muslims believe that once you are a muslim, especially if you are born a muslim, you can never leave islam. Perhaps prayer for all the muslims suffering under the demonic oppression of islam would be more fruitful than sarcastic retorts.

The sarcasm may have been a result of the sarcasitc remarks about my "claim of being a baptist minister". Take a look in the mirror.
 

AF Guy N Paradise

Active Member
Site Supporter
webdog said:
RB, the "good" in the OP would have been more accurate by stating "loyal", what I think was the point. If you are a "good" american, that means simply you are loyal and support the USA. In this context, a "good" muslim would be loyal to the Quran, Mohammed and Islam. If this person is a "good" (loyal) muslim, that totally contradicts with being a "good" (loyal) american, as we are the enemy!

You're on fire Webdog and you have already explained this on the first page but I guess some didn't listen or understand.
 
AF Guy N Paradise said:
You're on fire Webdog and you have already explained this on the first page but I guess some didn't listen or understand.

Do you think the Holy Bible would support a woman's right to kill her unborn child? Our American govt. does. Can you be a loyal american and a loyal christian? You see, this could be applied to anyone. Why just choose the muslims? Maybe because you hate them?
 

AF Guy N Paradise

Active Member
Site Supporter
reformedbeliever said:
Do you think the Holy Bible would support a woman's right to kill her unborn child? Our American govt. does. Can you be a loyal american and a loyal christian? You see, this could be applied to anyone. Why just choose the muslims? Maybe because you hate them?

I hate noone my friend. As a matter of fact, the Lord has really convicted my heart lately about souls that are headed to hell. For example, those poor innocent students that were masacred at Va Tech. I think 32 were killed total, but even though they were innocent the ones that rejected Jesus Christ are now in hell.

I look at muslims the same way. Without Jesus they are hell bound (John 14:6) There is only one way to salvation period... I hate their ways, actions, and beliefs but I realize again that behind all of that is a lost soul.

I have nearly 21 years in the AF and hopefully God will lead me to my next career where I can be a better witness.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
reformedbeliever said:
Do you think the Holy Bible would support a woman's right to kill her unborn child? Our American govt. does. Can you be a loyal american and a loyal christian? You see, this could be applied to anyone. Why just choose the muslims? Maybe because you hate them?
Belief in the right to have an abortion would not prohibit one from defending their own nation. Your comparison is apples and oranges. Belief in Abortion would not make one betray his country; not even a criminal.
 
AF Guy N Paradise said:
I hate noone my friend. As a matter of fact, the Lord has really convicted my heart lately about souls that are headed to hell. For example, those poor innocent students that were masacred at Va Tech. I think 32 were killed total, but even though they were innocent the ones that rejected Jesus Christ are now in hell.

I look at muslims the same way. Without Jesus they are hell bound (John 14:6) There is only one way to salvation period... I hate their ways, actions, and beliefs but I realize again that behind all of that is a lost soul.

I have nearly 21 years in the AF and hopefully God will lead me to my next career where I can be a better witness.

Brother...... without Jesus _______ is hellbound.
Luke 18:10. "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11. "The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
12. 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
13. "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
14. "I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
 

bound

New Member
reformedbeliever said:
Do you think the Holy Bible would support a woman's right to kill her unborn child? Our American govt. does. Can you be a loyal american and a loyal christian? You see, this could be applied to anyone. Why just choose the muslims? Maybe because you hate them?

The United States of America has 'living' Framework of Rights, Laws and Amendments which can and has changed throughout it's existence. To be a 'good' American doesn't mean to accept every law as it is 'right now' but to participate in the process.

Slavery was once lawful but the citizens rallyed to change things. Abortion may be lawful but the citizens can rally and change that.
 

AF Guy N Paradise

Active Member
Site Supporter
reformedbeliever said:
Brother...... without Jesus _______ is hellbound.
Luke 18:10. "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11. "The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
12. 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
13. "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
14. "I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

What are you implying here?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
reformedbeliever said:
What is wrong with this thread is the title. The other thing that is wrong is the implication that a "good" Muslim can not be a good American.
The implication is correct. If he follows the five pillars of Islam, and the five basic articles of faith, he will be devout in his religion and will shun infidels such as Christians. Does it make sense to you that the very nation that most Muslims call the "Great Satan" can come to America, and then turn around and be good American citizens after having that mindset all of their lives?
There are the majority of "good" Christians who believe that there is another way to salvation other than Jesus.
Then they are not good Christians and espouse a heresy. Jesus said "I am the way." There is no other way but through him.
I don't have the statistical information, but it seems I remember that over 50% of Southern Baptist believe that someone who trys hard and has a belief in a higher power can be saved.
Religion by works is heresy. Salvation is through Christ alone. Does it matter what others say even if they are SBC. Not to me.
They would not say that Jesus is the only way. What I am saying is to not lump everyone in any particular religion as a terrorist because of the action of some extreemist. If one fifth of the world population is muslim, don't you think they would have taken over by now if they were all "good" muslims. That is a scary thought huh?
It is not the people, per se. It is what does the religion itself teach? What is the overall goal of Islam. What does the Koran teach. What do the Muslim clerics teach? Little old Muslim grandmothers are not going to take up arms. We know that. We are looking at the teaching of a religion, not the present actions of all its adherents.
Can a "good" Christian be a good American? Depends on what you call "good" huh? How about Jews? How about any non Christian? I think the whole idea of this thread is flawed.
Most "good Christians" are probably not good Americans. What is the percentage of voter turn out at the various elections you have. Is it always above 50%? Is this an indicator of how "good" an American you are?
Lady Eagle. I don't know what you think are the requirements for a "good" minister. I am however thankful that my job as a minister is not dependent upon any man. I am a minister by the call of God and His appointment of such. As far as a "Baptist" minister, I hold to the baptist distinctives... and as such, I believe in the autonomy of the local church. If you have a problem with me being a "Baptist" minister send me a private message and í'll give you all the information you need to contact my church. If i'm fired i'll loose all that money that they pay me. You wouldn't want that to happen to me would you? :laugh: By the way........ I do not accept a paycheck. :thumbs:
No one on this board questions your calling and the fulfillment thereof.

BTW, we discuss the Catholics, the Mormons, the Charismatics, The Church of Christ, leaders such as Benny Hinn, and so many others. Why should the discussion of Islam get your goat?
 
DHK said:
The implication is correct. If he follows the five pillars of Islam, and the five basic articles of faith, he will be devout in his religion and will shun infidels such as Christians. Does it make sense to you that the very nation that most Muslims call the "Great Satan" can come to America, and then turn around and be good American citizens after having that mindset all of their lives?

Then they are not good Christians and espouse a heresy. Jesus said "I am the way." There is no other way but through him.

Religion by works is heresy. Salvation is through Christ alone. Does it matter what others say even if they are SBC. Not to me.

It is not the people, per se. It is what does the religion itself teach? What is the overall goal of Islam. What does the Koran teach. What do the Muslim clerics teach? Little old Muslim grandmothers are not going to take up arms. We know that. We are looking at the teaching of a religion, not the present actions of all its adherents.

Most "good Christians" are probably not good Americans. What is the percentage of voter turn out at the various elections you have. Is it always above 50%? Is this an indicator of how "good" an American you are?

No one on this board questions your calling and the fulfillment thereof.

BTW, we discuss the Catholics, the Mormons, the Charismatics, The Church of Christ, leaders such as Benny Hinn, and so many others. Why should the discussion of Islam get your goat?

Sir, I think it is because the way I took the title to the thread. When I saw the word "good" italicized sp? I did not take that to mean a loyal muslim. I took it to mean that a muslim can not be a good person. I think I need to back away from this thread sir. Do you have a problem with that? Will you allow me to do just that? I'd appreciate it.
The major problem I have is too many people beating their chests and telling God "I am glad i'm not like that tax collector". Grace and peace
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
reformedbeliever said:
Sir, I think it is because the way I took the title to the thread. When I saw the word "good" italicized sp? I did not take that to mean a loyal muslim. I took it to mean that a muslim can not be a good person. I think I need to back away from this thread sir. Do you have a problem with that? Will you allow me to do just that? I'd appreciate it.
The major problem I have is too many people beating their chests and telling God "I am glad i'm not like that tax collector". Grace and peace
We all have freedom in America/Canada brother. No one forces your hand/computer. God bless. :type:
 

amity

New Member
LadyEagle said:
BTW, it isn't just missionaries being tortured and murdered in islamic countries. Many of those people, probably most, are ex-muslims who have turned to Jesus Christ. Muslims believe that once you are a muslim, especially if you are born a muslim, you can never leave islam. Perhaps prayer for all the muslims suffering under the demonic oppression of islam would be more fruitful than sarcastic retorts.
LE, you are continuing onward unabated at the same steady pitch of hysteria. Please substantiate what you are saying . Especially the part about Islam being "demonic."
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
amity said:
LE, you are continuing onward unabated at the same steady pitch of hysteria. Please substantiate what you are saying . Especially the part about Islam being "demonic."
As Muhammad grew, his views changed. He came to believe in only one God, Allah, a monotheistic faith. He rejected the idolatrous polytheism of those around him. By the age of 40, the now religious Muhammad had his first vision. These revelations are what are now recorded in the Qur'an (Koran). Muhammad was at first unsure of the source of these visions, whether divine or demonic. His wife, Khadijah, encouraged him to believe that they had come from God. Later she became his first convert. However, his most important early convert was a wealthy merchant named Abu Bakr, who eventually became one of his successors.

Sir Norman Anderson discusses how Muhammad at first thought he was possessed by the demons, or Jinn, as they were called, but later dismissed the idea:
It seems, however, that Muhammad was at first doubtful of the source of these revelations, fearing that he was possessed by one of the Jinn, or sprites, as was commonly believed to be the case with Arab poets and soothsayers. But Khadijah and others reassured him, and he soon began to propound divine revelations with increasing frequency (Anderson, op. cit., p.55).

These visions mark the start of Muhammed's prophetic call by Allah. Muhammed received these visions during the following 22 years, until his death in 632 A.D.
From Josh McDowell's book, "A Handbook of World Religions"



Even Muslim scholars admit that Mohammed first believed his visions were from demons. It was his wife that convinced him that they were from God.
 

amity

New Member
Yes, wow, you almost got that right. I am so impressed. Problem with concluding that he was right the first time is that many Christians have had the same suspicion when they first had visions, and didn't some folks in the Old Testament as well? The being who contacted him identified himself as the angel Gabriel.

P.S. if I remember right, there is a difference between a demon and a jinn. A jinn can be good or evil. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie
 
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webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
amity said:
Yes, wow, you got that right. I am so impressed. Problem with concluding that he was right the first time is that many Christians have had the same suspicion when they first had visions, and didn't some folks in the Old Testament as well?
Since demons cannot indwell believers, I don't know how a Christian can have the suspicion that a vision is a result of demon possession.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
amity said:
Yes, wow, you got that right. I am so impressed. Problem with concluding that he was right the first time is that many Christians have had the same suspicion when they first had visions, and didn't some folks in the Old Testament as well?
If Mohammed was tried in a court today he would be jailed as a rapist and charged with pedophilia. He was an adulterer most of his life, and cared not. He was a murderer, and his visions came from the pit of hell, as he admitted, from demons.

Any prophet whose visions came from demons would have been stoned to death.
 
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