Can A "good" Muslim be a good American?

[JamieinNH]

Sir, I think it is because the way I took the title to the thread. When I saw the word "good" italicized sp? I did not take that to mean a loyal muslim. I took it to mean that a muslim can not be a good person. I think I need to back away from this thread sir. Do you have a problem with that? Will you allow me to do just that? I'd appreciate it.
The major problem I have is too many people beating their chests and telling God "I am glad i'm not like that tax collector". Grace and peace

Have no fear my brother. I for one can relate to where you're coming from.

It does seem that these topics get carried away, and the users and even the moderators let their hate and fear speak volumes. Instead of reational dicussions, like they do when talking about Morman, or Catholics, they let their fear show. They words titles and text in posts to show their hate.

We should strive to live a more loving life and follow Christ's example. Of all the people out to kill him, not once did he kick and scream and duck and dodge. We are to put out trust in Jesus and let the rest be. If we believe that God is truely in control of everything, and our trust and faith is in him, then what is there to worry about? One day these people will get it I hope.

Islam and Muslim is just the "new" people to hate. That will change over time, there will be another group to take their place..

Don't let this thread or these people get you down. Stand firm in your love and understanding for Christ.

Jamie

 

[amity]

Since demons cannot indwell believers, I don't know how a Christian can have the suspicion that a vision is a result of demon possession.

Didn't say possession! Obviously good and evil spirits can contact believers, because the Bible says to try the spirits to see if they be of God.

 

[amity]

If Mohammed was tried in a court today he would be jailed as a rapist and charged with pedophilia. He was an adulterer most of his life, and cared not. He was a murderer, and his visions came from the pit of hell, as he admitted, from demons.

Any prophet whose visions came from demons would have been stoned to death.

Ugh. Awful and irresponsible things to say.

 

[DHK]

Didn't say possession! Obviously good and evil spirits can contact believers, because the Bible says to try the spirits to see if they be of God.

That is not speaking of trying or testing the spirits of believers. Read the context.

 

[DHK]

Ugh. Awful and irresponsible things to say.

Awful, yes; truthful, also yes.
But this is the leader of Islam. He was a violent man; and it remains a violent religion.

 

[amity]

Awful, yes; truthful, also yes.
But this is the leader of Islam. He was a violent man; and it remains a violent religion.

Give us details and sources.

 

[DHK]

Give us details and sources.

Be specific. What type of detail do you want. Others have already given you details of the violence of Islam--world-wide violence. I have also.

Go back into the history of Mohammed, his wars, the history of the religion and how it began. It was a religion of violence. What are you looking for?

 

[amity]

The implication is correct. If he follows the five pillars of Islam, and the five basic articles of faith, he will be devout in his religion and will shun infidels such as Christians. Does it make sense to you that the very nation that most Muslims call the "Great Satan" can come to America, and then turn around and be good American citizens after having that mindset all of their lives?

DHK, you are taking the words of a few people and trying to generalize them to Islam. The U.S. is not taken to be "the Great Satan" by the vast majority of Muslims.

Now would you please identify the Five Pillars of Islam for those who are reading this thread? Is hatred of the U.S. among them? For you have clearly implied that it is.

 

[amity]

If Mohammed was tried in a court today he would be jailed as a rapist and charged with pedophilia. He was an adulterer most of his life, and cared not. He was a murderer, and his visions came from the pit of hell, as he admitted, from demons.

Any prophet whose visions came from demons would have been stoned to death.

Those are the details I want. :laugh:

 

[DHK]

DHK, you are taking the words of a few people and trying to generalize them to Islam. The U.S. is not taken to be "the Great Satan" by the vast majority of Muslims.

Now would you please identify the Five Pillars of Islam for those who are reading this thread? Is hatred of the U.S. among them? For you have clearly implied that it is.

Five Pillars of Faith​

Besides the five major beliefs or doctrines in Islam, there are also “five pillars of faith.” These are observances in Islam which are foundational practices or duties every Muslim must observe. The five are: The Creed, Prayers, Almsgiving, Fasting and the Pilgrimage to Mecca.

1. The Creed. (Kalima). "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah;' is the bedrock of Muslim belief. One must state this aloud publicly in order to become a Muslim. It is repeated constant*ly by the faithful.

2. Prayer (Salat). Prayer as ritual is central to a devout Muslim. Boa comments:
[FONT=&quot]The practice of prayer (salat) five times a day (upon rising, at noon, in midafternoon, after sunset, and before retiring).

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]3. Almsgiving (Zakat).
[/FONT] Since those to whom alms are given are helping the giver to salvation, they feel no sense of debt to the giver. On the contrary, it is the giver's responsibility and duty to give and he should consider himself lucky he has someone to give to.

4. Fasting (Ramadan). Faithful Muslims fast from sunup to sundown each day during this holy month. The fast develops self-control, devotion to God and identity with the destitute. No food or drink may be consumed during the daylight hours; no smoking or sexual pleasures may be enjoyed, either. Many Muslims eat two meals a day during Ramadan, before sunrise and one shortly after sunset.

[FONT=&quot]5. The Pilgrimage (Hajj). The pilgrimage is expected of all Muslims at least once in their lifetimes. It can be extremely arduous on the old or infirm, so in their cases they may send someone in their places.

[/FONT] This Muslim pilgrimage serves to heighten and solidify Islamic faith.

There is a sixth religious duty associated with the five pillars. This is Jihad, the Holy War. This duty requires that when the situation warrants, men are required to go to war to spread Islam or defend it against infidels. One who dies in a Jihad is guaranteed eternal life in Paradise (heaven).

source: Josh McDowell's, "Handbook of Today's Religions,"

 

[webdog]

DHK, you are taking the words of a few people and trying to generalize them to Islam. The U.S. is not taken to be "the Great Satan" by the vast majority of Muslims.

How do you know? Are you a spokesperson?

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Give us details and sources.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/657944/posts


http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/ch...history/crusades_canerchristianjihad0505.aspx

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=027454a783c841250ba7

 

[LadyEagle]

It does seem that these topics get carried away, and the users and even the moderators let their hate and fear speak volumes.

I haven't seen any moderators here speak volumes of hate or fear either one. Just the truth. If you must make digs, dig for the truth.

 

[amity]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/657944/posts


http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/ch...history/crusades_canerchristianjihad0505.aspx

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=027454a783c841250ba7

No, c'mon, I something with some credibility!

I like Wikipedia for things like this. The system works pretty well.

On Muhammad:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

On jihad:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

On alms (zakat):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat

The Five Pillars of Islam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_pillars_of_islam

 

[LadyEagle]

DHK, you are taking the words of a few people and trying to generalize them to Islam. The U.S. is not taken to be "the Great Satan" by the vast majority of Muslims.

You have proof of this which you will be happy to post here, of course.

 

[amity]

No, no, YOU are the ones making the accusation. YOU supply the proof that a majority of Muslims feel this way. And from a credible source, please. Any opinion polls, for example?

 

[DHK]

Those are the details I want. :laugh:

The Hijira​

The new faith encountered opposition in Muhammed's home town of Mecca. Because of his rejection in Mecca and the ostracism of his views, Muhammed and followers withdrew to the city now known as Medina, which means in full, "City of the Prophet," renamed from its original Yathrib.
The Hijira, which means “flight.” marks the turning point in Islam. All Islamic calendars mark this date, July 16, 622, as their beginning. Thus, 630 A.D. would be 8 A.H. (in the year of the Hijira).
In his early years in Medina, Muhammed was sympathetic to both the Jews and Christians as well. But they rejected him and his teaching. Upon that rejection, Muhammed turned from Jerusalem as the center of worship of Islam, to Mecca, where the famous black stone, Ka’aba was enshrined. Muhammed denounced all the idols which surrounded the Ka’aba and declared it was a shrine to the one true God, Allah.
With this new emphasis on Mecca, Muhammed realized he must soon return to his home. The rejected prophet did return in triumph, conquering the city.
John B. Noss details some of Muhammed's actions upon his return to Mecca:

One of his first acts was to go reverently to the Ka'aba; yet he showed no signs of yielding to the ancient Meccan polytheism. After honoring the Black Stone and riding seven times around the shrine, he ordered the destruction of the idols within it and the scraping of the paintings of Abraham and the angels from the walls. He sanctioned the use of the well Zamzam and restored the boundary pillars defining the sacred territory around Mecca. Thenceforth no Muslim would have cause to hesitate about going on a pilgrimage to the an*cient holy city.
Muhammed now made sure of his political and prophetic ascendency in Arabia. Active opponents near at hand were conquered by the sword, and tribes far away were invited sternly to send delegations offering their allegience. Before his sudden death in 632 he knew he was well on the way to unifying the Arab tribes under a theocracy governed by the will of God (John B. Noss, Man's Religions, New York: MacMillan Publishing Company Inc., 1974, p.517).
Between the return to Mecca and Muhammad's death, the prophet zealously and militantly propagated Islam, and the new faith quickly spread throughout the area.

Note he conquered with the sword, killing both Jews and Christians. Nothing got in his way. It was a relgion of violence from the beginning. When there was disagreement, he settled the disagreement with the sword.

When Muhammad died he had not written a will instructing the leadership in Islam about determining his successor. Sir Norman Anderson comments:

Muhammad died, according to the best-supported view, without having designated any successor (Khalifa or Caliph). As the last and greatest of the Prophets he could not, of course, be replaced. But the community he had founded was a theocracy with no distinction between Church and State, and someone must clearly succeed, not to give but to enforce the law, to lead in war and to guide in peace. It was common ground, therefore, that a Caliph must be appointed: and in the event 'Umar ibn al Khattab (himself the second Caliph) succeeded in rushing the election of the aged Abu Bakr, one of the very first believers. But the question of the Caliphate was to cause more divisions and hloodshed than other issue in Islam, and almost from the first three rival parties, in embryo at least, can be discerned. There were the Companions of the Prophet, who believed in the eligibility of any suitable "Early Believer" of the tribe of Quraysh; there was the aristocracy of Mecca, who wished to capture the Caliphate for the family of Umayya; and there were the “legitimists,” who believed that no election was needed, but that ‘Ali, the cousin and son-in-law of the Prophet, had been divinely designated as his successor (Anderson, op cit., p.64).

Peaceful, wasn't it?

Abu Bakr died less than two years after his designation as Caliph. Upon his death 'Umar became successor and under him the borders of the Islamic empire were considerably expanded.
Eventually a power struggle developed as different factions believed their own methods of establishing a successor were better than their rivals. The major eruption came between those who believed the Caliph should be elected by the Islamic leadership and those who believed the successor should be hereditary, through ‘Ali, Muhammad's son-in-law, married to his only daughter, Fatima. This struggle, along with others, produced the main body of Islam known as the Sunnis (followers of the prophet’s way) as well as numerous sects.

It expanded through the sword, through violence.

On other matters:

Mohammed had sex with his youngest wife, ‘Aisha, daughter of Abu Bakr, when he was about 53 and she was only nine years old.

This is important to a widely practiced but overlooked practice today: child brides in Muslim lands due to Mohammed’s example.​

In Iran as of June 2002 it is legal for a 9 year old girl to marry with her parents’ permission. Voices Behind the Veil p.136-137​

http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm

​

 

[webdog]

No, no, YOU are the ones making the accusation. YOU supply the proof that a majority of Muslims feel this way. And from a credible source, please. Any opinion polls, for example?

You made the statment the majority of muslims believe the way you stated. Burden of proof falls on you, then.

 

[DHK]

How do you know? Are you a spokesperson?

The term "the Great Satan" has been used by Saddam Hussein, and all of Iraq, the leader of Iran, and all of Iran, most of the Muslim clerics of Pakistan, and the greater population of Pakistan, and I would thus venture to guess a few other Islam nations as well. I can at least document the above three nations--Pakistan being the second largest Islamic nation in the world.

 

[amity]

I hate to tell you this, but the history of Christianity is no different in most instances. It was a very bloody business.

Nor are child brides uncommon throughout our history. As recently as the 1930s girls of as young as 9 were frequently married with parents consent, and the marriage consummated, right here in the U.S. Here are the legal ages for marriage in countries with large Muslim populations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_marriage

• Afghanistan: 18 for males, 16 for females, although more than half of marriages involve females under 16. [49]
  
• Bangladesh: 21 for males and 18 for females, lunar calendar; penal sanctions for contracting under-age marriages, though such unions are not considered invalid.[51]
  
• India: 21 for males, 18 for females.
  
• Indonesia: 18 for males, 16 for females.
  
• Iran: 15 for males, 13 for females.[53] (girls under 13 and boys under 15 may get married with their guardian consent and court ruling that its in their interest)
  
• Iraq: 18 for men and women; judicial permission may be granted at 15 years if fitness, physical capacity and guardian's consent (or unreasonable objection on part of guardian) are established. (May or may not have been revised after Saddam Hussein's fall.)[54]
  
• Israel: 17 for females.
  
• Kuwait: No minimum marriage age identified; capacity to marry requires parties to be of age (puberty) and of sound mind, however, no notarisation or registration of marriage permitted where female has not reached 15 years or male 17 years[55]
• Lebanon: 18 years for males and 17 for females; scope for judicial discretion on basis of physical maturity and wali's permission from 17 years for males and 9 for females; real puberty or 15/9 with judicial permission for Shi'a; 18/17 or 16/15 with judicial permission for Druze.[56]
  
• Jordan: 16 for males and 15 for females, lunar calandar; court permission required for females under 18 to marry men older by 20 years or more.[57]
  
• Pakistan: 18 for males, 16 for females.
  
• Philippines: 21 for males and females, 18-21 with parental consent, 22-25 with Parental Advice (parents aware of couple's intent) [4].
  
• Syria: 18 years for males and 17 for females; judicial discretion for males of 15 years and females of 13 years; judge may withhold permission for marriage if court finds incompatibility in age between betrothed parties.[60]
  
• Turkey: 18, 17 with parental consent, 16 under special circumstances with court approval.
  
• Yemen: 9 ("In 1999, the minimum marriage age of fifteen for women, rarely enforced, was abolished; the onset of puberty, interpreted by conservatives to be at the age of nine, was set as a requirement for consummation of marriage."[61])