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Can a Sinful Man go to Hell on His Own?

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: Where does the point of separation from God start Bob? Are you telling me that one must reject an offer of salvation in order to become a fit candidate for hell? That is exactly what is implied if you make the damning sin something other than what Scripture states it is. “ Your sins have separated you from God.”

The rejection of Jesus Christ and the gospel message is not the damning sin. The damning sin is the first choice of willful rebellion against a known commandment of God. “Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way;”

All are BORN sinners - with sinful natures in need of a Savior.

But that is not how they get to hell. To actually get to hell they must reject the provision God has made for lost mankind - the way of escape, the gospel of our salvation must be rejected to get to hell.

Christ does not "miss anyone" in that effort -- aLL "are convicted of sin and righteousness and judgment" according to John 16.

In Christ,

Bob
 

donnA

Active Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:




HP: You and I seem to have a great disagreement on what constitutes a rebel. Rebels are not just some passive individual laying somewhere doing nothing, unable to make decisions. Your depiction is certainly not the picture I have gained from the prophets of old, Jesus, or the apostles. Wicked men are actively involved in their own demise, not of force or coercion, but of their own wicked selfishness, their blatant opposition to known commandments of God.
what do you think the bible means when it says an unbeleiver is dead in his sins?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Helen said:
When I think of 'drawn', I think more of something like a magnet, something a little more compelling. In John 12:32, Jesus is talking and [in context] says "Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

Now, I just asked my husband to see how he is thinking about this and he checked the word used in the Greek. The word for 'draw' in that verse is different from the word translated 'draw' in some other verses. It is Strongs #1670 helko, or helkuo. It is from a root meaning to prefer or choose.


John 12 Helkuo Strong's 1670
12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
kagw ean uywqw ek thv ghv, pantav elkusw prov emauton.


John 6 Helkuo Strong's 1670
6:44 "No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
oudeiv dunatai elqein prov me ean mh o pathr o pemyav me elkush| auton, kagw anasthsw auton en th| esxath| hmera|.
  1. to draw, drag off
  2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel
Hint: Click on the word highlighted to see the meaning.
 
Donna: what do you think the bible means when it says an unbeleiver is dead in his sins?

HP: First, he is lost without hope of eternal life with God. He has became totally unwilling to obey God and is given to selfishness as the controlling law of their life by yieding themselves willingly to the influences of the flesh, the devil, and the world.

To be dead in a spiritual sense is not necessarily to be unable, but to be unwilling. We as believers are to be dead indeed unto sin. This does not mean that it is 'impossible' for us to sin, but rather that we are to be totally unwilling to sin.


Even though we can indeed walk in the light of the Holy Spirit to the point that it can be rightfully said that we 'cannot sin,' I do not believe that it indicates an impossibility to sin, but again a 'total unwillingness' to sin.

One is only 'dead in sin' in a literal sense of 'impossibility to do right' when and if the Holy Spirit has withdrawn Himself from that individual, seeing that the only motivating influence to good has been completely and entirely eliminated from their life.
 
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BR: All are BORN sinners - with sinful natures in need of a Savior.

HP: Can you show me one verse that can be interpreted ‘in context’ to support this Augustinain notion? I have posted several objections to the interpretation of many of the proof texts used to support constitutional moral depravity. I cannot remember if you refuted my posts concerning them or not. It seems to me that I just received silence from you on those verses. If I am wrong, please forgive me and point me to your response if you can. If not, just set forth your proof text again and we can address it afresh.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
I've never seen a dead man do anything but lay there, they are slaves to their situation, unable to make decisions.
This is where you are wrong. When we are dead, we still exist somewhere. Unless you are dead, and in that "somewhere", you have no way of knowing a physically dead man cannot make decisions.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: Can you show me one verse that can be interpreted ‘in context’ to support this Augustinain notion? I have posted several objections to the interpretation of many of the proof texts used to support constitutional moral depravity. I cannot remember if you refuted my posts concerning them or not. It seems to me that I just received silence from you on those verses. If I am wrong, please forgive me and point me to your response if you can. If not, just set forth your proof text again and we can address it afresh.

Romans 7 claims that the NEW nature is at war with the old. "War in the members of my flesh" refers to the war of the two natures.

Romans 3 describes a "purely evil sinful nature" that is NOT the case with very many people at all - since God is working to DRAW them. Yet it claims it is true of ALL HUMANs regardless of age or religion or faith.

This too can only be true if taken to be the sinful nature of all humans apart from the consideration of the drawing of God and the emnity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman place supernaturally in the nature of man by God in Gen 3.

Eph 2:1-4 makes it clear that we live by the dictates of sin while apart from Christ.

Romans 6 makes it clear that we are ENSLAVED to sin until freed from it in the Gospels.

None of these texts make the argument "you used to be freed from sin while living apart from Christ - but THEN the day came when you made bad choices and enslaved yourself to sin so now you need to be set free by the Gospel".

In Christ,

Bob
 
BR: Romans 7 claims that the NEW nature is at war with the old…..
Romans 3 …..

HP: You talk in such vague and sweeping terms, referring to whole chapters at a time, yet do not point to one specific passage where the Augustinian notion of moral constitutional depravity is substantiated.


BR: This too can only be true if taken to be the sinful nature of all humans apart from the consideration of the drawing of God and the emnity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman place supernaturally in the nature of man by God in Gen 3.

HP: What?

BR: Eph 2:1-4 makes it clear that we live by the dictates of sin while apart from Christ.

HP: If you believe that an infant or one that is not a moral agent lives by the dictates of sin, what sin(s) are they guilty of? Sin is a violation of God’s law. What law have they violated? (Where there is no law, sin is not imputed)

BR: Romans 6 makes it clear that we are ENSLAVED to sin until freed from it in the Gospels.

HP: You are extrapolating this to include those that are not even moral agents. What specific Scripture allows you to predicate sin where there is no law? Tell us how infants and those not even moral agents are ‘enslaved to sin.’ That is beyond the scope or Scripture, reason, and experience.

BR: None of these texts make the argument "you used to be freed from sin while living apart from Christ - but THEN the day came when you made bad choices and enslaved yourself to sin so now you need to be set free by the Gospel".

HP: You are acting as if the burden of proof is upon silence to prove your presuppositions or admit defeat. You have it backwards. The burden of proof lies upon you to establish clearly that those ‘not moral agents’ are under the law and are held eternally accountable to God for a violation of a law that they are not under. Moral law applies to moral agents and is suited for none other according to Scripture. “Where there is no law, sin is not imputed.” “To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to HIM it is sin.”

 
The burden of proof is upon BR to establish that “sinners are born as sinners in birth.” Take Romans 3, which BR refers to often as proof of inherited moral depravity. What verse in that chapter or any other states anything about being born in sin, born with a sinful moral nature, born morally depraved, born in original sin, or any other such Augustinian notion. It simply does not.

Due to the fact that ‘all have sinned’ or that there is not one righteous prior to salvation, does not in any way equate to being born with original sin or constitutional moral depravity. It simply establishes the fact that “all we like sheep have gone astray, and have turned everyone to his own way” and that in Scriptural terms have ‘become’ unprofitable.

Morality is impossible to conceive of without moral accountability. Moral accountability demands that certain conditions are present. There must be a law, abilities to understand and comprehend and comply with that law, knowledge of that law, and a free will to either obey or disobey the know commands, i.e., the power of contrary choice of intents. Morality takes place in the will of man, antecedent to the doing, and cannot under any circumstances be seen as attached to the physical or the sensibilities or the nature that we are born with. Morality cannot be predicated without contrary choice to choose not just to follow the necessitated impulses of the sensibilities, but the choice to actually determine the intents of the heart, formed in the will of man, that are antecedent to any and all outward acts.

The so-called constitutional moral depravity foisted upon the church by Augustine is at best an oxymoron. By claiming sin can be predicated prior to the formation of intents within the will, that serve as the cause of ones actions and therefore blameworthy or praiseworthy, choices which of necessity must take place for morality to exist, all morality is annihilated. Constitutional depravity destroys accountability and makes God unjust in blaming man for being born into a state in which he did not ask to be birthed into nor have anything whatsoever to do with the outcome of his moral nature and subsequent moral choices. Such a notion is simply not supported by Scripture or reason.
 

AAA

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
“Without me ye can do nothing.”

These words are often presented as evidence that sinful man is completely helpless, often described as a log floating down a stream. My question to the list is, can a man go to hell on his own, or does God have to help him go to hell, seeing that sinful man is dead and can do nothing on his own according to the way some interpret this passage?

No he can't.....because it is the hOLY Angels of GOD that will cast the sinners inot the lake of fire............

God had to create the person before he could go..........
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
BobRyan said:
Romans 7 claims that the NEW nature is at war with the old. "War in the members of my flesh" refers to the war of the two natures.

Paul argues that at the moment he began to understand the law he found that he was condemned - whereas BEFORE having that understanding he thought he was ok.

He then says that in his "inner man" he was choosing obedience but there was "war WITHIN him". He shows that his sinful nature is at war with his "new-Creation" nature in Romans 7 and that the Law is SPIRITUAL Holy Just and good - by contrast to his inner sinful nature.



Romans 3 describes a "purely evil sinful nature" that is NOT the case with very many people at all - since God is working to DRAW them. Yet it claims it is true of ALL HUMANs regardless of age or religion or faith.

Romans 3 states that "WE ARE ALL under condemnation" that the "WHOLE WORLD" is being held accountable by the principle that ALL are depraved and that there is NONE "no not ONE" that seeks after God.

This can only be true at the level of the sinful nature sin Paul HIMSELF is an example of one who WAS seeking after God at the time he wrote the words "WE are no better than they" in Romans 3.

This too can only be true if taken to be the sinful nature of all humans apart from the consideration of the drawing of God and the emnity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman place supernaturally in the nature of man by God in Gen 3.

Eph 2:1-4 makes it clear that we live by the dictates of sin while apart from Christ. "The prince of the power of the air" virtual dictates to the sinful nature.

Romans 6 makes it clear that we are ENSLAVED to sin until freed from it in the Gospels. It states that in Gospel salvation we are FREED from what we start out enslaved to -

None of these texts make the argument "you used to be freed from sin while living apart from Christ - but THEN the day came when you made bad choices and enslaved yourself to sin so now you need to be set free by the Gospel".

In Christ,

Bob[/quote]
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
God sovereignly chooses to "Draw ALL mankind to Himself" so the sinner that "goes to hell anyway" must "say no to the drawing of God" to get there.

in Christ,

Bob


(Bob refers to John 12:32 "I will draw ALL mankind unto Me"

Helen said -
I don't find that in the Bible, Bob. What I find is that all men are invited, but only those who want the truth are drawn to Christ.

The Drawing of Christ in John 12:32 enables the CHOICE to accept salvation that depravity disables.

All are called - all are drawn - but not all choose to respond - though fully enabled to do so.

In Christ,

Bob
 
BR: The Drawing of Christ in John 12:32 enables the CHOICE to accept salvation that depravity disables.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


HP: This is as clear of example as can be seen as to the way BR consistently begs the question. How does this verse state in any way that all men will have the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel, or that the drawing spoken of here
“enables the CHOICE to accept salvation that depravity disables?”

The only way you can get this verse to walk on all four legs in support of BR’s presuppositions, is to accept his presuppositions before you consider the text.
 
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