Ray Berrian
New Member
Place a 'Search' on Keith Drury then go to page 2 and number 22. He has some interesting things to say about this issue.
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Can A Woman Be A Pastor?
- Thread starter Ray Berrian
- Start date
Hope of Glory
New Member
"Can" or "may"?
Ray Berrian
New Member
I am on Netscape and enhanced by Google
Ray
Ray
Ok Ray I didn't have any numbers outside my search and with out me putting the whole website URL on this page (Just incase its aginst BB rules) Does it start like this?
http://watkins.gospelcom????????????????????
If so I did print this out and will read it today at the fire station.
BBL tonight~ Ya'll have a great day!
http://watkins.gospelcom????????????????????
If so I did print this out and will read it today at the fire station.
BBL tonight~ Ya'll have a great day!
hillclimber
New Member
Not in my church, ever.
I think the question should be whether a woman should be an overseer.
The idea that 'pastor' means an official in charge of a church, appointed or ordained to that position, comes more from tradition than anything else, imo. The scripture uses 'pastor' to describe someone gifted to tend to sheep, and 'overseer' to refer to someone appointed to a position of leadership to tend to sheep.
It is conceivable that an older woman who teaches younger women how to live could be 'pastoring' them in a spiritual sense, without being appointed to an overseer role.
I Timothy 2 and 3 contains that passage about women not usurping authority over or teaching a man, and then the part about Adam and Eve, and then goes right into the part about an overseer needing to be the husband of one wife. It seems clear Paul had men in mind for the role.
The idea that 'pastor' means an official in charge of a church, appointed or ordained to that position, comes more from tradition than anything else, imo. The scripture uses 'pastor' to describe someone gifted to tend to sheep, and 'overseer' to refer to someone appointed to a position of leadership to tend to sheep.
It is conceivable that an older woman who teaches younger women how to live could be 'pastoring' them in a spiritual sense, without being appointed to an overseer role.
I Timothy 2 and 3 contains that passage about women not usurping authority over or teaching a man, and then the part about Adam and Eve, and then goes right into the part about an overseer needing to be the husband of one wife. It seems clear Paul had men in mind for the role.
Ray,
bmerr here. Concerning the question, "Can/May a woman be a pastor?", it may be helpful to understand that "pastor", "bishop", "elder", and "overseer" are all names for the same office, each one having somewhat to do with the different aspects of the office.
With this in mind, we can turn to 1 Tim 3:1-7 to see what qualifications one must have to serve as a pastor.
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
You may have noticed that this begins with "any man". I took a minute and looked "man" up in Strong's (5100) and it basically means "any man". One could argue that this is inconclusive. Very well.
Then I looked up "husband" (Strong's - 435), and it was a bit more specific as to gender. The definition reads,
"a prim. word [comp. 444]; a man (prop. as an individual male):-fellow, husband, male, sir."
Now, Massachusetts may make court rulings to the contary, but it is absolutely impossible for a woman to be the husband of one wife, as near as I can tell, anyway.
Whatever one's opinion might be, the Bible says that a woman is not authorized to serve as a pastor, bishop, overseer, elder. The verses following those above rule out women serving as deacons, as well.
Concerning this post,
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
The reason behind Paul's not suffering a woman to teach or have authority over men lies in God's created order. It's just not how God set things up.
This does not mean that women are inferior to men. It does not mean that Paul hated women, and was trying to keep them down. (Remember that Paul wrote these words by inspiration.) It simply means that God has ordained different roles for men and women in life, and in the church.
Before I go on, I thought it might be interesting to number the NT references to the office in question, in order to determine the best term to use for it. I have limited the count to those pertaining to the office in the NT church.
- bishop - 3
- bishops - 1
- elder - 5
- elders - 15
- overseers - 1
- pastors - 1
Form here on, I will use the term elder.
A third point I'd like to make is that the office of elder (which is the most commonly used term for the office) was always held by a plurality of men in each congregation in the NT. The popular "one pastor" system employed by most denominational bodies is unscriptural.
One of the identifying marks of the Lord's church is a plurality of elders (when two or more qualified men of a congregation desire the office). This is in accordance with the pattern found in the NT.
Hope this helps.
In Christ,
bmerr
bmerr here. Concerning the question, "Can/May a woman be a pastor?", it may be helpful to understand that "pastor", "bishop", "elder", and "overseer" are all names for the same office, each one having somewhat to do with the different aspects of the office.
With this in mind, we can turn to 1 Tim 3:1-7 to see what qualifications one must have to serve as a pastor.
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
You may have noticed that this begins with "any man". I took a minute and looked "man" up in Strong's (5100) and it basically means "any man". One could argue that this is inconclusive. Very well.
Then I looked up "husband" (Strong's - 435), and it was a bit more specific as to gender. The definition reads,
"a prim. word [comp. 444]; a man (prop. as an individual male):-fellow, husband, male, sir."
Now, Massachusetts may make court rulings to the contary, but it is absolutely impossible for a woman to be the husband of one wife, as near as I can tell, anyway.
Whatever one's opinion might be, the Bible says that a woman is not authorized to serve as a pastor, bishop, overseer, elder. The verses following those above rule out women serving as deacons, as well.
Concerning this post,
The verses preceding those above disqualify a woman from preaching or teaching men. 1 Tim 2:12-14 read,
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
The reason behind Paul's not suffering a woman to teach or have authority over men lies in God's created order. It's just not how God set things up.
This does not mean that women are inferior to men. It does not mean that Paul hated women, and was trying to keep them down. (Remember that Paul wrote these words by inspiration.) It simply means that God has ordained different roles for men and women in life, and in the church.
Before I go on, I thought it might be interesting to number the NT references to the office in question, in order to determine the best term to use for it. I have limited the count to those pertaining to the office in the NT church.
- bishop - 3
- bishops - 1
- elder - 5
- elders - 15
- overseers - 1
- pastors - 1
Form here on, I will use the term elder.
A third point I'd like to make is that the office of elder (which is the most commonly used term for the office) was always held by a plurality of men in each congregation in the NT. The popular "one pastor" system employed by most denominational bodies is unscriptural.
One of the identifying marks of the Lord's church is a plurality of elders (when two or more qualified men of a congregation desire the office). This is in accordance with the pattern found in the NT.
Hope this helps.
In Christ,
bmerr
Ray Berrian
New Member
Music4 Him,
I am sorry that I did not get back to this site until now.
Yes, I was referring to Walkins. Gospel..........
Ray
I am sorry that I did not get back to this site until now.
Yes, I was referring to Walkins. Gospel..........
Ray
Thank you Ray~ I printed it off to read at the Fire Station today, but we got busy by the time I got to page 3. I'm worn out tonight, and forgot I promised to watch the hyperactive grandson tonight 
So now I'm looking aT sometime after he crashes or tommorrow before I read it all. However what I did read is just about what I have told most who think women should keep silent.
So now I'm looking aT sometime after he crashes or tommorrow before I read it all. However what I did read is just about what I have told most who think women should keep silent.Quote by Link:
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I think the question should be whether a woman should be an overseer.
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Exsactly~ and my answer is no she should not be overseer of the church, but I still believe she can teach & preach. Matt. 28:19 and Mark 16:15
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I think the question should be whether a woman should be an overseer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exsactly~ and my answer is no she should not be overseer of the church, but I still believe she can teach & preach. Matt. 28:19 and Mark 16:15
I do not see a conclusive case for the idea that 'pastor' means a church overseer. The NT scripture does not give us much detail. We know that it is someone whose work is similar to that of a literal shepherd watching over sheep.
According to Acts 20 and I Peter 5, elders are to pastor the church/flock of God. But the Bible does not teach us that the word 'pastor' means to be the official overseer of the church, to preach on Sunday, or be church CEO. Many of those ideas come from tradition and the way 'pastor' is used nowadays in English. Literal shepherds who watched sheep did not preach to them and offer marriage counselling, so we can't see these ideas as inherent in the word poimen.
If overseers are to pastor, we cannot conclude from this that anyone gifted to pastor is an overseer. Couldn't someone meeting regularly to counsel with new believers and teach them the word be considered pastoring and teaching, even if the one who does it is not in church government or ordained to an office? Elders aof the church are to counsel and teach people, but some people do so because of their gift, even if they are not in the elder role.
Maybe you have seen a new believer who had a gift of pastor who soon was discipling and teaching people. But since he was a novice in the faith he was not qualified to be an overseer. Some churches don't care if someone is Biblically qualified to be an overseer. They will make him one if he is 'called to preach' and speaks well.
According to Acts 20 and I Peter 5, elders are to pastor the church/flock of God. But the Bible does not teach us that the word 'pastor' means to be the official overseer of the church, to preach on Sunday, or be church CEO. Many of those ideas come from tradition and the way 'pastor' is used nowadays in English. Literal shepherds who watched sheep did not preach to them and offer marriage counselling, so we can't see these ideas as inherent in the word poimen.
If overseers are to pastor, we cannot conclude from this that anyone gifted to pastor is an overseer. Couldn't someone meeting regularly to counsel with new believers and teach them the word be considered pastoring and teaching, even if the one who does it is not in church government or ordained to an office? Elders aof the church are to counsel and teach people, but some people do so because of their gift, even if they are not in the elder role.
Maybe you have seen a new believer who had a gift of pastor who soon was discipling and teaching people. But since he was a novice in the faith he was not qualified to be an overseer. Some churches don't care if someone is Biblically qualified to be an overseer. They will make him one if he is 'called to preach' and speaks well.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Link,
We must enjoy the Presence of the same Holy Spirit and read the same Bible.
I agree with you that someone who gets saved cannot immediately be a pastor of a church, because it takes years to understand most of the Bible and Christian theology, Practical Theology as in counseling, and Church History. I do realize that this is an on going development in all of us.
God, speaking throught the penmanship of the Apostle Paul says,
'Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the Devil.' This protects the good name of the Christian church. A man or woman who senses a call to Christian service should be allowed to preach in church under the guidance of an Elder, so that one can try his or her wings once he is aloft from the eagles nest, but this is a 'far cry' away from full time responsibilities over the souls of the entire congregation. It will prove as a good experience in the development of those souls who desire to serve the Lord.
Much wrong teaching and harm is done to the church when the newly saved person grabs a Bible and starts an independent church. In many cases they come up with strange ideas and personal convictions they want to force in the lives of their hearers.
Dr. James Strong says the word 'novice' means 'newly planted, a young convert,or "neophyte"
We must enjoy the Presence of the same Holy Spirit and read the same Bible.
I agree with you that someone who gets saved cannot immediately be a pastor of a church, because it takes years to understand most of the Bible and Christian theology, Practical Theology as in counseling, and Church History. I do realize that this is an on going development in all of us.
God, speaking throught the penmanship of the Apostle Paul says,
'Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the Devil.' This protects the good name of the Christian church. A man or woman who senses a call to Christian service should be allowed to preach in church under the guidance of an Elder, so that one can try his or her wings once he is aloft from the eagles nest, but this is a 'far cry' away from full time responsibilities over the souls of the entire congregation. It will prove as a good experience in the development of those souls who desire to serve the Lord.
Much wrong teaching and harm is done to the church when the newly saved person grabs a Bible and starts an independent church. In many cases they come up with strange ideas and personal convictions they want to force in the lives of their hearers.
Dr. James Strong says the word 'novice' means 'newly planted, a young convert,or "neophyte"
Rev. Lowery
New Member
I agree that a woman shouldnt teach a man nor should she preach the scripture is clear on these 2 subjects
Look at Mark 16:14-16
It shows clearly that Christ was speaking to the Apostles.
Also Matthew 28:16-20
It shows clearly that Christ was speaking to the Apostles.
This is a problem we are taking scripture out of context read the surronding verse's and you get the whole picture. You get the Truth.
If we say well the Bible says woman can and then some say the bible says we cant, we are saying the word of God is contradicting. So then one group here is wrong and its not the word of God
The book of Timothy is clear 1 Tim 2:12-14
If some say women can preach it can only be to women if women can teach it can only be to women...But, Paul says women are to be silent.
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
Look at Mark 16:14-16
It shows clearly that Christ was speaking to the Apostles.
Also Matthew 28:16-20
It shows clearly that Christ was speaking to the Apostles.
This is a problem we are taking scripture out of context read the surronding verse's and you get the whole picture. You get the Truth.
If we say well the Bible says woman can and then some say the bible says we cant, we are saying the word of God is contradicting. So then one group here is wrong and its not the word of God
The book of Timothy is clear 1 Tim 2:12-14
If some say women can preach it can only be to women if women can teach it can only be to women...But, Paul says women are to be silent.
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
It often pains me when women try to say that Paul was just trying to tell the ladies to not talk during the service. Of course, every woman I know could use THAT reminder! Myself included!
But then, why does Paul also give his reasoning for this as the fact that the woman was created 2nd, after the man....indicating it is NOT part of the curse but was an original part of God's pre-Fall creation.
He also cites that Eve was deceived in the Garden.
Neither of these are cultural. We ladies just need to get a grip on what our role is and accept it with grace and zeal for what God WANTS us to do, instead of trying to get whatever the men have.
But then, why does Paul also give his reasoning for this as the fact that the woman was created 2nd, after the man....indicating it is NOT part of the curse but was an original part of God's pre-Fall creation.
He also cites that Eve was deceived in the Garden.
Neither of these are cultural. We ladies just need to get a grip on what our role is and accept it with grace and zeal for what God WANTS us to do, instead of trying to get whatever the men have.
Ray Berrian
New Member
While most often women were to bring children up into the most holy faith, some were prophetess. For example, Miriam the sister to Moses [Ex. 15:20]
Deborah, wife of Lapidoth [Judges 4:4-chapter5].
Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah [II Kings 22:14].
Noadiah--[Nehemaih 6:14].
Now in the N.T.
Anna, of the Tribe of Asher [Luke 2:36-38].
Philip the Evangelist had four daughters who were virgins and also prophecied/preached [Acts 21:8-9].
God through the Apostle Paul allowed women to preach in church as duly noted in I Corinthians 11:5 including praying in the House of God. The important thing was that the women including the preaching woman had to have a covering on her head as in a veil or handkerchief because of the presence of God's angels in Divine worship.
To keep things in balance we remember that Lois and Eunice did a precious thing by leading Timothy toward the things of the Lord. A mother has great influence in teaching children the things about our Lord.
This makes room for Kathryn Kuehlman, minister Hicky and other women who preach on television. (forgive the spelling).
I have had people tell me that a woman pastor can relate better, generally speaking, than a man minister. They are more empathetic, caring, understanding and loving than we men can be. I can believe this. Sometimes it even comes through more clearly in preaching.
I am the old dog who finds it difficult to allow for change, but again Jesus said, in Christ, there is no longer male or female and that He has no respect toward persons [Deut. 10:17 & Romans 2:11].
Deborah, wife of Lapidoth [Judges 4:4-chapter5].
Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah [II Kings 22:14].
Noadiah--[Nehemaih 6:14].
Now in the N.T.
Anna, of the Tribe of Asher [Luke 2:36-38].
Philip the Evangelist had four daughters who were virgins and also prophecied/preached [Acts 21:8-9].
God through the Apostle Paul allowed women to preach in church as duly noted in I Corinthians 11:5 including praying in the House of God. The important thing was that the women including the preaching woman had to have a covering on her head as in a veil or handkerchief because of the presence of God's angels in Divine worship.
To keep things in balance we remember that Lois and Eunice did a precious thing by leading Timothy toward the things of the Lord. A mother has great influence in teaching children the things about our Lord.
This makes room for Kathryn Kuehlman, minister Hicky and other women who preach on television. (forgive the spelling).
I have had people tell me that a woman pastor can relate better, generally speaking, than a man minister. They are more empathetic, caring, understanding and loving than we men can be. I can believe this. Sometimes it even comes through more clearly in preaching.
I am the old dog who finds it difficult to allow for change, but again Jesus said, in Christ, there is no longer male or female and that He has no respect toward persons [Deut. 10:17 & Romans 2:11].
Jesus has no respect towards persons, of course. But that is not a comment on the various roles which are given to men and women. Otherwise the passages I mentioned would be in contradiction with what you just said. This sort of discussion always comes around to some kind of thinking that seeing a DIFFERENCE IN ROLE between men and women is the same as seeing a DIFFERENCE IN VALUE between men and women. They are not synonymous.
A woman can obviously relate better to women....that does not mean that there ought to be a woman as pastor over the entire church.
The prophetesses you mentioned are also not pastors in a church.
I would even say that the ladies you mentioned who are preaching on TV are not pastors over a church....nor should they be, regardless of how sound their Bible teaching is.
A woman can obviously relate better to women....that does not mean that there ought to be a woman as pastor over the entire church.
The prophetesses you mentioned are also not pastors in a church.
I would even say that the ladies you mentioned who are preaching on TV are not pastors over a church....nor should they be, regardless of how sound their Bible teaching is.