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can God change His mind?
- Thread starter massdak
- Start date
See Jonah 3:10 and decide for yourself.
Change His mind on any ISSUE, if this is in
regards to what He says is right and wrong, no.
If this is something that He has proposed to do, good or bad, concerning an individual, city or what have you, yes; that is clearly taught in scripture. There is every reason to believe, for example, that Hezekiah would have, indeed, died when the prophet was sent to him the first time.
regards to what He says is right and wrong, no.
If this is something that He has proposed to do, good or bad, concerning an individual, city or what have you, yes; that is clearly taught in scripture. There is every reason to believe, for example, that Hezekiah would have, indeed, died when the prophet was sent to him the first time.
Daniel David
New Member
He doesn't change his mind like we would.
He knows with precision what will definitely take place. There is no ignorance with God.
There is also the truth that he often declared that he would bring judgment upon a people. If they repented (which is implied if not explicitly stated), then he declared that he would not judge them at that time.
This means that God used the threat of judgment to get people to repent. This has nothing to do with God not knowing what will exactly take place.
I think you can find some information on a small cult called open theism. They aren't saved by any means because they have a cosmic gambler as their idol, errrrggggghhhh, god.
He knows with precision what will definitely take place. There is no ignorance with God.
There is also the truth that he often declared that he would bring judgment upon a people. If they repented (which is implied if not explicitly stated), then he declared that he would not judge them at that time.
This means that God used the threat of judgment to get people to repent. This has nothing to do with God not knowing what will exactly take place.
I think you can find some information on a small cult called open theism. They aren't saved by any means because they have a cosmic gambler as their idol, errrrggggghhhh, god.
If God changes His mind on any issue, then He sure doesn't inhabit eternity, way I see it.
Nope.
Nope.
Nope.
If you want to investigate Open Theism, try reading some of the literature of those who embrace it, then read the literature of those who oppose it.
In my experience, most folks who attack Open Theism (including those who are published) don't seem to understand what is being said by those discussing it.
Here's the most basic information excerpted from the writings of John Sanders:
what is open theism?
Open Theism (also called Free Will Theism) connects with the spirituality of many Christians throughout the history of the church especially when it comes to prayer. Many Christians feel that our prayers or lack of them can make a difference as to what God does in history. The Openness of God is an attempt to think out more consistently what it means that God enters into personal relationships with humanity. We want to develop an understanding of the triune God and God's relationship to the world that is Biblically faithful, finds consonance with the tradition, is theologically coherent and which enhances the way we live our Christian lives. On the core tenets of the Christian faith, we agree, but we believe that some aspects of the tradition need reforming, particularly when it comes to what is called "Classical Theism." We believe that some aspects of this model of God have led Christians to misread certain Scriptures and develop some serious problems in our understanding of God which affect the way we live, pray and answer the problem of evil.
the general tenets of open theism
"[Open Theism] . . . Presents an understanding of God's nature and relationship with his creatures, which we call the openness of God; in broad strokes, it takes the following form. God, in grace, grants humans significant freedom to cooperate with or work against God's will for their lives, and he enters into dynamic, give and take relationships with us. The Christian life involves genuine interaction between God and human beings. We respond to God's gracious initiatives and God responds to our responses . . . and on it goes. God takes risks in this give-and-take relationship, yet he is endlessly resourceful and competent in working toward his ultimate goals. Sometimes God alone decides how to accomplish these goals. On other occasions, God works with human decisions, adapting his own plans to fit the changing situation. God does not control everything that happens. Rather, he is open to receiving input from his creatures. In loving dialogue, God invites us to participate with him to bring the future into being."
copied from:
http://www.antithesis.com/toolbox/open-theism.html
In my experience, most folks who attack Open Theism (including those who are published) don't seem to understand what is being said by those discussing it.
Here's the most basic information excerpted from the writings of John Sanders:
what is open theism?
Open Theism (also called Free Will Theism) connects with the spirituality of many Christians throughout the history of the church especially when it comes to prayer. Many Christians feel that our prayers or lack of them can make a difference as to what God does in history. The Openness of God is an attempt to think out more consistently what it means that God enters into personal relationships with humanity. We want to develop an understanding of the triune God and God's relationship to the world that is Biblically faithful, finds consonance with the tradition, is theologically coherent and which enhances the way we live our Christian lives. On the core tenets of the Christian faith, we agree, but we believe that some aspects of the tradition need reforming, particularly when it comes to what is called "Classical Theism." We believe that some aspects of this model of God have led Christians to misread certain Scriptures and develop some serious problems in our understanding of God which affect the way we live, pray and answer the problem of evil.
the general tenets of open theism
"[Open Theism] . . . Presents an understanding of God's nature and relationship with his creatures, which we call the openness of God; in broad strokes, it takes the following form. God, in grace, grants humans significant freedom to cooperate with or work against God's will for their lives, and he enters into dynamic, give and take relationships with us. The Christian life involves genuine interaction between God and human beings. We respond to God's gracious initiatives and God responds to our responses . . . and on it goes. God takes risks in this give-and-take relationship, yet he is endlessly resourceful and competent in working toward his ultimate goals. Sometimes God alone decides how to accomplish these goals. On other occasions, God works with human decisions, adapting his own plans to fit the changing situation. God does not control everything that happens. Rather, he is open to receiving input from his creatures. In loving dialogue, God invites us to participate with him to bring the future into being."
copied from:
http://www.antithesis.com/toolbox/open-theism.html
Daniel David
New Member
BB, does open theism teach that God knows exactly what will happen?
freeatlast
New Member
Daniel
you said that people who hold to the open theism belief are all lost. I am not saying I do, but Since when is believing that God knows everything even in all eternity a condition for salvation? I though that salvation was premised on the person repenting and accepting Jesus by faith.
Can you give some scripture reference to your claim please?
you said that people who hold to the open theism belief are all lost. I am not saying I do, but Since when is believing that God knows everything even in all eternity a condition for salvation? I though that salvation was premised on the person repenting and accepting Jesus by faith.
Can you give some scripture reference to your claim please?
freeatlast
New Member
Daniel
my understanding of open theism is that God knows what can be known. He either limits himself to not know all the future or it is unknowable. He knows the end and He knows the beginning, but the things in the middle are open unless He directly interviens in them. His will is still going to be done since He has ordained certain things, but He does allow things to take place that are unknown to Him. That is what i understand that they believe.
Certainly Jesus did not know everything. He said that. I am going to stop here since this sort of high jacks the thread. I might make a post on the topic to see what peoplke believe about this.
Daniel David
New Member
freeatlast, does the Bible require that we believe in the biblical portrait of Christ or whatever Christ I can imagine?
You don't get to redefine who God is and still say it is the one true God. If you redefine him, that is idolatry.
This really puts O.T. in the position it doesn't want to be in. Either their view is right or ours is. If they say their view is correct, then I am an idolatrous person.
They don't want to go there, but that is because they lack the ability to understand it.
Charles Meadows
New Member
Jonah 3:10
"...and God repented of the evil..."
This type of statement is difficult to take together with the concept of an all-powerful God. I think what we see here is more of the OT writers' PERSPECTIVE about things. Consider the book of Job - which paints God as being somewhat capricious in His allowing Satan to afflcit Job. The writing (which is par for the course for the time period) reflects the human emotions that observe God doing these things. The NT helps us interpret these things better!!
"...and God repented of the evil..."
This type of statement is difficult to take together with the concept of an all-powerful God. I think what we see here is more of the OT writers' PERSPECTIVE about things. Consider the book of Job - which paints God as being somewhat capricious in His allowing Satan to afflcit Job. The writing (which is par for the course for the time period) reflects the human emotions that observe God doing these things. The NT helps us interpret these things better!!
DD is right. Open theism denies the fundamental nature of God. It takes the first step in "materializing" Him by placing Him within the confines of natural time only. Time had a beginning and will have an end... God has neither.
BTW, it is long been my opinion that this is the only logical end to arminian thought. If man has free will in the sense that non-calvinists claim he does then God cannot know the future... open theism simply takes the last logical step.
BTW, it is long been my opinion that this is the only logical end to arminian thought. If man has free will in the sense that non-calvinists claim he does then God cannot know the future... open theism simply takes the last logical step.
Open theism is heresy of the most subtle form. It denies the true deity of the Godhead and makes God MY lackey. Sad.
From man's perspective, God changes His mind. From God's perspective, He is IMMUTABLE and in Him is no change or variableness of turning.
Read that somewhere!!
From man's perspective, God changes His mind. From God's perspective, He is IMMUTABLE and in Him is no change or variableness of turning.
Read that somewhere!!
Paul of Eugene
New Member
From God's eternal standpoint all things are simultaneous; he is above time; saying He changed his mind doesn't make sense, that implies there was one time when He had one mind for a thing and another time when He had another time for a thing and He is beyond time, not in time.
One of the things He factors into all His ways is our prayers. They really matter.
From our time-oriented point of view it can, perhaps, appear that a change in God's actions was caused by our prayers. Our point of view is imperfect, but we are stuck with it.
One of the things He factors into all His ways is our prayers. They really matter.
From our time-oriented point of view it can, perhaps, appear that a change in God's actions was caused by our prayers. Our point of view is imperfect, but we are stuck with it.
Open theism does not teach anything. What is called open theism is not a tightly defined and refined set of doctrinal statements or a theological system, but rather some general principles around which a discussion of the relation of God to humanity is based.
It is an attempt to free the teachings of the scriptures and Christian thought from the presuppositions of our Greek philosophical heritage and a rejection of modernism.
Even within the definition of some of the basic principles there are levels of disagreement between those who advocate these principles.
At its most fundamental level, open theists try to scripturally reconcile the biblical affirmation of God’s sovereignty and the biblical affirmation of human free will within a scriptural context.
To answer your question, one must understand the nature of time:
If the future already exists and humankind is inevitably moving toward fulfilling it (all patterns and decisions are set), then yes, God knows exactly what will happen.
If the future does not yet exist (that is, time is merely the description of a sequence of events and neither the past nor the future exist – only the present), then God does not know exactly what will happen… BUT, God does know and understand all of human history and the present in a comprehensive and detail way (including human thoughts, intent and motivations), knows all human beings (not to mention the animal, insect and plant kingdoms), the nature of all matter (not only on the earth but through the entire cosmos), and His intentions and purpose for His creation.
Furthermore, God is an active player in creation guiding human free will by events, direct leadership of individuals and His church, and “natural” events. Furthermore, God will from time to time heavily intervene in human history to change the flow of circumstance to more closely match His will.
And in Christ, God entered the human stage, directly and personally, and intervened on behalf of all humanity to make it possible for us to have a life that cannot be destroyed.
Through this life, found only in and through Christ, we work together with God as co-laborers with the Spirit to expand His kingdom share His life with others.
Daniel David
New Member
BB, please do not mince words. O.T. has basic tenets that all O.T. proponets hold to, otherwise it wouldn't be O.T.
As far was what God knows, your statements have God as a perfect historian and one up to date on what everyone and everything thinks.
O.T. isn't about freeing the Scriptures from greek presuppositions at all. It is a way to let God off the hook.
O.T.ers usually employ the logic like this:
God is good.
God is all powerful and all knowing.
The world is full of evil and suffering.
Either God is not good or not all powerful.
So, they pick the part about God being good, but lacking in complete deity (all powerful and all knowing).
This is just another attempt to reduce who God is to the level of man. If God does not know everything that will definitely take place, then he isn't God and is not worthy to be worshiped as such.
The greeks did not form the basis of a God who knows everything. The Old Testament prophets speak of God's unchanging plan, how he has declared the end from the beginning, etc.
Really, the presuppositions are rooted in Scripture themselves. Stop trying to introduce mythology as the bases for non Open Theistic thought.
As far was what God knows, your statements have God as a perfect historian and one up to date on what everyone and everything thinks.
O.T. isn't about freeing the Scriptures from greek presuppositions at all. It is a way to let God off the hook.
O.T.ers usually employ the logic like this:
God is good.
God is all powerful and all knowing.
The world is full of evil and suffering.
Either God is not good or not all powerful.
So, they pick the part about God being good, but lacking in complete deity (all powerful and all knowing).
This is just another attempt to reduce who God is to the level of man. If God does not know everything that will definitely take place, then he isn't God and is not worthy to be worshiped as such.
The greeks did not form the basis of a God who knows everything. The Old Testament prophets speak of God's unchanging plan, how he has declared the end from the beginning, etc.
Really, the presuppositions are rooted in Scripture themselves. Stop trying to introduce mythology as the bases for non Open Theistic thought.
Not mincing words. I’m giving you as accurate a description as I know how to give in just a few sentences.
Yes, there are general principles, but it is not a tightly defined system like Calvinism. The Christian community is in the process of developing the open theism view, so there are quite a few variables and different emphases.
Yes, but much more than that.
If you honestly believe that statement, then it is clear you know nothing about open theism. Please educate yourself by reading some primary sources before you make unsubstantiated allegations.
Yes, I agree.
Nonsense.
Nonsense. No wonder you think it is heresy. You don’t have a clue about open theism.
False allegation.
He may not be the God you have imagined in your theology, but He might well be the God described in scripture.
The mythology of the Greeks did not, but the philosophy of the Greeks did.
Yes. God’s intention and purpose stays the same.
You’re reading your presuppositions into that one. Of course, you and I discussed that passage a while back and I demonstrated that it didn’t say what you allege it says.
Then let’s see them.
Not mythology… philosophy.
There is a huge difference.
Psa 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Job 37:16b...The wonders of one perfect in knowledge
Job 36:4b...One who is perfect in knowledge is with you.
Isa 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard?
The Everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired.
His understanding is inscrutable.
Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
If there is something God doesn't know then that would put a pretty big crimp in those verses, especially, the last one.
Job 37:16b...The wonders of one perfect in knowledge
Job 36:4b...One who is perfect in knowledge is with you.
Isa 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard?
The Everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired.
His understanding is inscrutable.
Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
If there is something God doesn't know then that would put a pretty big crimp in those verses, especially, the last one.