Can We Be Perfect?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

HP: How do you harmonize that Scripture with these?

Php 3:15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Brother Bob]

HP: How do you harmonize that Scripture with these?

Php 3:15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Phl 3:21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

I harmonize them by the inward man being born again in Christ Jesus and having the mind of Christ and born of an

incorruptible. What I have said from the beginning that the inward man of a Christian had been made perfect and ready to go

to Heaven when death come. That still leaves the outward man which is corruptible and where Paul said in this flesh dwelleth

no good thing.

That is a far cry from being as Holy and Perfect as Jesus Christ Himself. If we are capable of any sin then we are not Christ's

equal. No one was found worthy except Jesus and I do not think being that we been born again inside of a dying and

corruptible body that we in no way compare with Jesus Christ. All through the Bible when it speaks of being perfect, it is

speaking to the heart or mind.

It seems when God speaks of being "perfect" He mean more the "heart/Spiritual mind" than anything.

1Ki 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, [that] his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as [was] the heart of David his father.

1Ki 15:3 And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

2Ch 19:9 And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart.

Isa 38:3 And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done [that which is] good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Hbr 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

I sure hope you don't believe this:
I am as holy and perfect as Jesus is.

How do you explain this scripture with the ones you posted?

Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

 

[DHK]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Phl&chapter=3&verse=21&version=kjv#21
I sure hope you don't believe this:
I am as holy and perfect as Jesus is.

How will you ever get to heaven Bob.

Are you as holy as God is holy? If not, you have a problem. God will not allow any unholy thing or person into heaven. If you are not as holy as God you cannot enter into heaven. Nothing unholy enters into heaven. Nothing that defiles enters into heaven.
In fact:
Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

You cannot see God without holiness. It is an impossibility.
What kind of holiness? 50%, 70% 80% ???
You know there is no such thing as relative holiness. The verse means either you are holy or you are not. Do you have the holiness of God? Are you as holy as God? If not, you cannot enter into heaven.

Perhaps I am not as holy as God in my daily walk--I never claimed that.
But because of Christ, I am as holy as God in my standing before Him.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BB: How do you explain this scripture with the ones you posted?

Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

HP: It would appear that there is indeed a sense in which he felt he was perfect and yet in another sense he felt that he had a long way to go. I trust I will have the opportunity someday of having Paul explain it to me.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The verse means either you are holy or you are not. Do you have the holiness of God? Are you as holy as God? If not, you cannot enter into heaven.

HP: I would take clear exception to this statement. God is Infinite, I am but finite. God does not command me to love Him with His abilities, but with mine. God does not command me to love Him with His knowledge and strength, but mine. Whatever he commands us concerning holiness, is in direct consideration of our limitations as finite creatures.

 

[Brother Bob]

How will you ever get to heaven Bob.

Are you as holy as God is holy? If not, you have a problem. God will not allow any unholy thing or person into heaven. If you are not as holy as God you cannot enter into heaven. Nothing unholy enters into heaven. Nothing that defiles enters into heaven.
In fact:
Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

I follow the Lord and let Him do the leading. I don't feel worthy DHK; I am glad you do but I do not. I live the best I know how but not now nor never have I felt as good as my Lord.

My Lord can't sin but I can.
My Lord is Holy enough to not die but I can.
My Lord does not perish, but I do.
My Lord has no weakness but I am weak.
My Lord is without spot or blemish, but I am afraid that I still have to wait to have a glorified body.

I am glad for you and really for us. If the Lord ever gets tired then you can sit on the right hand of God for a while where he said He overcome and sat down with His Father in His throne. I haven't got there yet, I have this appointment of death I have to face. He don't.

His thoughts are always pure, mine is not.
He truly loves everyone, I just have to try but fail.
I could go on and on about being Holy, I don't even know what it would be like to be as Holy as He is.

He said there is none good saving the Father which art in Heaven, that included you and me DHK; so that leaves me short. Somehow you got around it.

Yes, I am glad for you DHK; but I think it means to have a perfect heart. Remember that heart He gave you when you were born again? A heart of flesh that could love your enemies and removed that heart of stone. Well, He gave you a perfect heart. God don't give bad stuff, only good. All things work for the good of the Lord.

Yes, I am glad for you DHK; maybe I won't make it, but I think I will keep trying. You see, I love the Lord. I love this Old Time Baptist way that believes we are kept by the power of God and that we don't commit adultery. I tell you what DHK;, Maybe you more Holy and Perfect than I am, but I can guarntee you that I won't commit adultery before I die. You know why, I love the Lord.

 

[DHK]

HP: I would take clear exception to this statement. God is Infinite, I am but finite. God does not command me to love Him with His abilities, but with mine. God does not command me to love Him with His knowledge and strength, but mine. Whatever he commands us concerning holiness, is in direct consideration of our limitations as finite creatures.

There is a difference between our standing and our walk as a Christian. No man can love as God loves, or be as holy in their walk as God is holy.
But at salvation God made me as holy as He is. He clothed me with the righteousness of Jesus Christ. He justified me. He gave me that holiness that made me acceptable in God's sight. Unless I am as holy as God is I cannot enter into heaven. God will not allow anything unholy into heaven. For without are the defiled and unholy. It is Christ that made me holy. He gave me a standing of holiness when I believed in Him, and His blood that it was sufficient to cover the payment for the penalty of my sins. His blood is all sufficient. I don't have to work for my salvation, for my holiness. It is all of God. Salvation is of Him. (Even the unconfessed sins at the end of my life are covered by His blood).

 

[Brother Bob]

(Even the unconfessed sins at the end of my life are covered by His blood).__________________
DHK

So, they are Holy too?

 

[DHK]

So, they are Holy too?

You figure it out Bob.
When the death angel passed over the houses in Egypt; some had been symbolically covered with blood and some not. Were the Israelites made holy or was it the sin that was made holy because of the blood?

 

[Brother Bob]

You figure it out Bob.
When the death angel passed over the houses in Egypt; some had been symbolically covered with blood and some not. Were the Israelites made holy or was it the sin that was made holy because of the blood? __________________
DHK

So you believe in a works salvation?

 

[DHK]

So you believe in a works salvation?

Where do you get that from?
I believe in the sacrifice of Christ, and that his blood covers all my sin--past present and future.
Yours is the works salvation.
You believe you have to work in order to have that last sin before death to make sure that it is confessed. That is a works salvation. For if it is not confessed, you say, you will end up in hell.

 

[Amy.G]

Bro. Bob:

I follow the Lord and let Him do the leading. I don't feel worthy DHK; I am glad you do but I do not. I live the best I know how but not now nor never have I felt as good as my Lord.

That is exactly the point. We are NOT worthy and never will be.

Romans 5:8 (New King James Version)
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ is our righteousness. I am hidden in Christ. When God looks at me, He sees me through Christ. No one is perfect in themselves. Our perfection lies in Christ. We are clothed in righteousness, not ours, but His.

 

[Brother Bob]

Are you as holy as God is holy? If not, you have a problem.
I am as holy and perfect as Jesus is. DHK:

Amy tell DHK that, not me.

That is exactly the point. We are NOT worthy and never will be.

We are clothed in righteousness, not ours, but His.

So, you are saying that it is He that is Holy and Perfect?

 

[Brother Bob]

Where do you get that from?
I believe in the sacrifice of Christ, and that his blood covers all my sin--past present and future.
Yours is the works salvation.
You believe you have to work in order to have that last sin before death to make sure that it is confessed. That is a works salvation. For if it is not confessed, you say, you will end up in hell.__________________
DHK

Don't you believe it is "work" to commit that last unconfessed sin of Adultery, or is that a "gift" too?

A faultless man, never thought I would meet one in this life. IMO

You use a works salvation to justify yours. You do that a lot. IMO

If both houses had the same sin then I guess the blood made the sin of the house with the blood, Holy. So the sin was Holy. According to you theory. IMO

 

[Ztheberean]

Hi there everyone,

I am happy to see that you took the time to look up the word perfect. I just want to add on what you have come up with for your edification. Now that we know that we need to be perfect, the question is HOW do we become perfect?

The word perfect is used 99 times in the bible, and I use the blueletterbible.org to do word studies which is very easy to use. We can only go into the Scriptures to find answers so that we would be edified by the word of God, rather than our opinions. The verse that was used in question Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
That word perfect is strongs # 5046 which means brought to it’s end, finished, complete.
The word perfection is strongs # 5047 which means moral and spiritual perfection.

In Hebrews it speaks that we need to lay the foundation of repentance for true faith so that God might permit us to go on to perfection. (Heb 6:1&3) We cannot do the will of God without the knowledge of this doctrine (Jn 7:17); And we are NOT to receive anyone who does not bring/teach this doctrine because they do not have the Father and the Son, and we will partake in their evil deeds. (2Jn 1:9-11) This is why we need to learn what repentance means so that we would bring forth the fruits of repentance, without which we will be cast into the fire. (No matter what we believe. (Matt 9:13-12, Lk 3:8-9) This is obviously a process that cannot be done instantly. This is also known as God creating us in Christ Jesus so that we could do good works, so that we would not boast (that we did it ourselves) because it is a gift from God. (Eph 2:10-8) This gift is God’s power working in us by His grace so that we would minister these things unto others. (Eph 3:7) This process is also known as “our” crucifixion with Christ nevertheless we live, but not us (ie our will) but Christ in us, and the life we now live we live by the faith of the Son of God who loved us enough to give Himself for us, without which (ie our crucifixion with Christ) we can only frustrate the grace of God. (Gal 2:20-21) A willingness to go through this is acceptable unto God, because He first gives us a willingness and then causes us to perform for His good pleasure. (1Cor 8:12, Phil 2:13) The question is, have we asked God to crucify us so that we could truly live for Him?

This is how we can have hope, because after we have been freed by Christ from the bondage of sin, we can patiently wait on the Spirit to make us righteous and loving, so that we can go on to serve others in love. (Gal 5:1, 5-6 & 13) I hope that no one is hindering you from obeying this truth? (Gal 5:7)

What is perfection? The ability to love (Col 3:14); meaning; love our enemies, and do good to those that hate us, and despitefully use us (Matt 5:44); This is how we know that we have been made perfect as our Father is perfect. (Matt 5:48)

Love can rejoice in the truth that reveals grace,

Zianna
1Cor 13:6 with Col 1:6

 

[Brother Bob]

Do you feel Holy?

Do you feel Perfect?

Anyone?

 

[Amy.G]

Do you feel Holy?

Do you feel Perfect?

Anyone?

Bob, I believe I already answered that question. Post #53. I am only holy when hidden in Christ. He is my holiness.

 

[DHK]

Don't you believe it is "work" to commit that last unconfessed sin of Adultery, or is that a "gift" too?

Why do you keep confusing salvation with the Christian walk? Is this done purposely by you to confuse others.
In respect to salvaton I never repented of all my sins to be saved. I don't beleive anyone has. Such a religion is unbiblical and is a religion of works. Give me one verse in the Bible where it says that one should "repent of all their sins." No one can even remember all their sins, much less repent of them. That is a misconception in Christianity.
Thus that last unconfessed sin was put under the blood at the time that I believed in Christ, as were all my sins--past, present, and future. All of them: whether they were confessed or not. They are all under the blood. That is what salvation is--the complete forgiveness of my sins. Do you mean to tell me that you don't have that forgiveness, and consequenty that you don't have an assurance of your salvation?

 

[Brother Bob]

Why do you keep confusing salvation with the Christian walk? Is this done purposely by you to confuse others.
In respect to salvaton I never repented of all my sins to be saved. I don't beleive anyone has. Such a religion is unbiblical and is a religion of works. Give me one verse in the Bible where it says that one should "repent of all their sins." No one can even remember all their sins, much less repent of them. That is a misconception in Christianity.
Thus that last unconfessed sin was put under the blood at the time that I believed in Christ, as were all my sins--past, present, and future. All of them: whether they were confessed or not. They are all under the blood. That is what salvation is--the complete forgiveness of my sins. Do you mean to tell me that you don't have that forgiveness, and consequenty that you don't have an assurance of your salvation?__________________
DHK

If you are asking me if I am as Holy as God, the answer is no.

If you are asking me do I have something that allows me to be in the act of adultery with my neighbors wife, the answer is no.

If you are asking me if I feel like I am a perfect man, the answer is no. I don't care who says they feel like they are a perfect person, I do not. Does that mean I am lost DHK?

If you are asking me if the blood of Christ allows me to commit adultery or killing, stealing, homosexuality etc, the answer is no.

I am as holy and perfect as Jesus is. DHK:

If you are asking me if I am as you say, holy and perfect as Christ, the answer is no.

 

[Shiloh]

Justification: Is not to declare one innocent. Justification declares the demands of the law have been satisfied and that one free from condemnation.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Justification: is instantaneous, complete and final. The soul united to Christ by faith becomes partaker of His complete satisfaction to the demands of the law, Col 2:9,10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: and final since the union with Christ is indissoluble. As there are many acts of sin in the life of a believer there are many acts of forgiveness following them. But all these acts of forgiveness are virtually implied in that first act by which he was finally and forever justified. E.H.Bancroft