Can we know who is non-elect?

If certain men are predestined to be saved, then the obvious question arises, "why preach the gospel to all men?"

The standard Calvinist answer to this question is: we preach the gospel to all men because only God knows who is elect and non-elect. I have even heard the trite statement by a few Calvinist preachers that, "I preach like an Arminian."

When we look at the Bible, we find that those who preached the gospel indeed did know who was elect and non-elect and so stated.

Jesus, for example, told the unbelieving Jews in John chapter 10 that they were not His sheep and proved it by the fact that they didn't believe. On this basis we may justly conclude that every unbeliever is non-elect.

In Acts 13 when Paul preached at Antioch in Pisidia, he told those who rejected his message that they had judged themselves "unworthy of eternal life."

Later, when Paul was imprisoned in Rome and held discussions with the Jews of that city, he told those who didn't believe that they were among those spoken of by Isaiah when he said,

"Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand, and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive."

These passage show again that we can indetify the non-elect, namely all who do not believe.

Again, Peter says,

"Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation."

Here the elect are clearly identified as the believers and the non-elect as the unbelievers.

The adversity these facts create for the Calvinist position is too obvious to need any further elaboration.

Mark Osgatharp

 

npetreley,

The basis upon which Jesus declared certain Jews not to be among His sheep was the fact that they did not believe on him. That proves that all unbelievers are not sheep. He also asserted that all His sheep hear his voice. Therefore, any man who does not believe on Christ is non-elect.

You said,

"The ones who were appointed for eternal life (the elect) believed the message they heard. The others, the non-elect, did not believe it."

Which proves my above point. All unbelievers are non-elect. In both of these instances those who were "sheep" and "ordained to eternal life" before they believed on Jesus were Old Testament believers who already believed in Christ but had not yet heard that Jesus was that very Christ. In other words, they were already believers, already saved, and therefore already elect. The thing which they "believed" on this occasion was that Christ had come in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

But we never find the Bible talking about an unbeliever who is elect. That is my whole point here. Anyone who does not beleive the gospel is non-elect - not a sheep. Therefore, the whole idea of a person being elected before they become a believer is foreign to the Scripture and therefore Calvinism falls.

Mark Osgatharp

[ October 24, 2002, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Mark Osgatharp ]

 

npetreley and Pastor Larry,

There were, before Christ came into the world, many children of God scattered throughout the world. Caiaphas spoke of these when he prophesied that Christ would die for the people and John comments,

"that Jesus should die for that nation; and not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad."

The passages which speak of sheep or elect or those ordained to eternal life who had not yet "believed" does not mean they were unbelievers. These passages speak of men who were believers in the coming Christ who had not yet heard and therefore not yet believed that Jesus was that Christ. As these people heard the news that Christ had come they "believed" - which does not mean they "became believers" but that they "believed" the news that Christ had come in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

The Jews who did not accept Jesus as the Christ proved that they were not true believers in God or in Christ. That is exactly what Jesus is speaking about in John chapter 10 when He says,

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep."

This verse will not fit Calvinism, for Calvinism says there are some sheep who are unbelievers; yet Jesus said that these men, by not believing on Him, proved they were not sheep. If Calvinism be true, then according to this passage no unbeliever could ever become a believer because all unbelievers are not sheep.

All the true believers in Israel believed on Jesus when they heard that He was the Christ. They were already believers in God and His Christ, just as all the saints from the beginning of the world had been. The thing which they came to believe is that Jesus was the Christ. Jesus spoke of these when He said,

"To him [Messiah] the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out."

While here on earth Jesus came to call out the true sheep in Israel from among the goats. There is nothing in the passage that says a goat cannot become a sheep. The passage simply says that all who were sheep believed on Jesus when they heard about him. Jesus went on, on the same occasion, to invite the goats to believe on Him. He said,

"But if I do [the works of the Father], though ye believe not me, believe the works; that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."

Mind you, these were the same people who Jesus just told they were not His sheep because they did not believe on Him. Therefore these scriptures lend no aid to Calvinism, indeed, they work against Calvinism.

Mark Osgatharp

 

Do you realize that you turned the statement by Jesus around and made it say exactly the opposite of what Jesus actually said?

It is because thay are not sheep that they don't believe, not that they are not his sheep because they don't believe. Read the statement by Jesus carefully:

"...you do not believe, because because you are not of my sheep."

Being a sheep is the cause of believing rather than believing being the cause of being a sheep.</font>[/QUOTE]Russel,

You are correct, but not in the way you thinkg. The fact that the people were sheep is what caused them to believe. But you still fail to understand who these people were or what it is they "believed."

The whole issue in John chapter 10 was whether or not Jesus was the Messiah. There were certain Jews who were already sheep and because they were already sheep the believed on Jesus when He came. This does not mean they "became believers" because they were sheep. It means they believed that Jesus was their long awaited Messiah because they were already sheep - that is to say already people who had faith in God and His Messiah.

The Jews who did not accept Jesus as the Messiah proved they were not sheep - that is to say, proved they were unbelievers, though they professed to be believers. But to these same unbelievers Jesus commanded,

"believe."

The fact that they were not sheep didn't prohibit them from believing. Had they repented and believed they would have been added to the sheepfold.

Mark Ogatharp

[ October 24, 2002, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: Mark Osgatharp ]