Catholics teach that only they go to Heaven

[BobRyan]

From Eliyahu's link

The town of Beziers was before the attacking armies. Rather than systematically seek out the Albigenses from the Catholic population the papal legate gave the order to "kill them all. The Lord knows His own." The blood thirsty crusaders obliged. Women and children were not spared. Almost 20,000 innocent people were slain in just this one attack. Further campaigns of terror were conducted in 1215-1218, 1226-1229, and 1232-1233. At the last, the business of the inquisition was entrusted to the Dominicans, called "the hounds of the Pope." So widespread and devastating were these crusades, that the testimony of Christ was all but exterminated in the South of France. Those who did escape fled to Italy and Germany where they sowed the seeds of the Anabaptist movement in Europe. Some returned from whence they came - to Bulgaria, where the Bogomils continued to exist. The Albigenses were also called Paterines, meaning "sufferers."

Question - how many times does this same point have to be made!

Why debate against it??

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

From Eliyahu's link



Question - how many times does this same point have to be made!

Why debate against it??

Answer-
No one is debating that point, the point debated is that the popes were responsible for killing many, but death at the hands of a pope does not make one a Christian. Being killed at the hands of popery does not instantly remove the heresies which any particular group held. The popes had many Muslims killed too, but that does not turn Muslims into Christians.

This world is not the Christian's home, death of the body for a Christian is not a fearful experience. Not having gone through it personally yet, I have sought out the experience of others who have, which is the point the book I posted on this link.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1079195#post1079195


If I live I get to serve Christ, if I die, I get to be with Him, either way I win.


BGTF

Late edit further to that same thought:

Nichomachus, being brought before the proconsul as a Christian, was ordered to sacrifice to the pagan idols. Nichomachus replied, "I cannot pay that respect to devils, which is only due to the Almighty." This speech so much enraged the proconsul that Nichomachus was put to the rack. After enduring the torments for a time, he recanted; but scarcely had he given this proof of his frailty, than he fell into the greatest agonies, dropped down on the ground, and expired immediately.
Denisa, a young woman of only sixteen years of age, who beheld this terrible judgment, suddenly exclaimed, "O unhappy wretch, why would you buy a moment's ease at the expense of a miserable eternity!" Optimus, hearing this, called to her, and Denisa avowing herself to be a Christian, she was beheaded, by his order, soon after.

From Foxes Book of Martyrs- Both died at the hands of persecutors, but only one was saved.

 

[Eliyahu]

So they were divided into three parties as to the flesh of Christ, some holding He took flesh of the Virgin Mary, some not; others that He took it really and suffered in it, but did not take it to heaven on His ascension. The sacraments of the Roman body they wholly rejected. They had a certain but unsatisfactory faith in the Trinity.* All this had nothing to do with the Vaudois.

There are others, I just picked some of the high points. Based on your own information, to claim that the beliefs of the Albigenses was not heretical is incorrect.


BGTF

You must understand that not only Albigenes but also most of the believers had no idea about the Life Science at that time.
I don't believe that the Ovum of Mary was used for fertilization with the Holy Spirit, but the perfect Human Embryo was launched in the womb of Mary. However, many translations even today, say that Jesus was conceived in Mary which sounds like Fertilization between Word of God and the Ovum of Mary. It must have been difficult for them to refute Theotokos. Their explanation cannot be construed as Heresy.

As for Trinity, no one can be sure that Godheads are Trinity as long as anyone doesn't deny the deity of Jesus Christ.
The relationship between 3 Godheads cannot be flawlessly explained by human words. Even today some believers claim that Godheads may be close than Trinity but clearly distinguishable more than Modalism.
If you look at the burning sun in the sky, the Godheads may be like that, 3 Godheads are unified in the Sun, a huge gas mass, 3 Godheads share everything there commonly, but they are separate entities. Noone can explain Godheads in human language perfectly. Have they denied Deity of Jesus ? Have you read the Inquisitors report ?

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

I don't believe that the Ovum of Mary was used for fertilization with the Holy Spirit, but the perfect Human Embryo was launched in the womb of Mary....

As for Trinity, no one can be sure that Godheads are Trinity as long as anyone doesn't deny the deity of Jesus Christ.
The relationship between 3 Godheads cannot be flawlessly explained by human words. Even today some believers claim that Godheads may be close than Trinity but clearly distinguishable more than Modalism....

At last, we get to the root of our differences.

You deny the operation of the Holy Spirit in the conception of Jesus Christ, and are confused about the nature of the Trinity. At this point, none of the rest of our discussions matter.

If you want help with this let me know. You can PM me if you want.


BGTF

 

[hillclimber1]

I don't care what the Catholics preach, except to the extent that they deceive millions of people. I care about that.

 

[Matt Black]

I am quite surprised to see your view on Albigenes.

Albigenes may have had the Dualism, but that was far smaller problem than their killers, RCC. They taught the Salvation, refused the Purgatory, they translated the Bible, they learned from the Cathari and Paulicians, Bogomils.

Read thru my post.

Good grief, your history is skewed! The Albigensians were the same as the Cathars - the two terms are interchangeable. They called themselves cathari meaning 'pure' but they acquired the nickname 'Albigensians' because they were largely based in the vicinity of Albi in S W France. So to say that "Albigenes (sic)...learned from the Cathars" is to inaacrurately deny the conflation of those titles.

And at last you admit that they were dualists - which immediately places them outside the pale of Christianity. Given your sub-orthodox views on the Trinity, Christology and the Virgin Birth, I'm not sure about you now, either...

 

[Eliyahu]

Good grief, your history is skewed! The Albigensians were the same as the Cathars - the two terms are interchangeable. They called themselves cathari meaning 'pure' but they acquired the nickname 'Albigensians' because they were largely based in the vicinity of Albi in S W France. So to say that "Albigenes (sic)...learned from the Cathars" is to inaacrurately deny the conflation of those titles.

And at last you admit that they were dualists - which immediately places them outside the pale of Christianity. Given your sub-orthodox views on the Trinity, Christology and the Virgin Birth, I'm not sure about you now, either...

We cannot say that the Cathari are the exactly the same as Albigenes. though the latter may be the extension of the first. I know both names go often together, but Albigenes were communicating with Bogomils as well.

As for the Dualism, you don't know exactly what they meant.
For example, when we argued about the Earthquake disaster which struck Catholic Cathedral in Pisco, Peru which killed more than 60 devout Roman Catholic believers. How can you explain such disaster without thinking about the Almighty, Omniscient God? Couldn't God protect His beloved Roman Catholic people? or did God smite the Idol worshippers?
Look at the AIDS patients. Does God carry the virus of AIDS for the patients? How does God who is merciful and gracious do the evil things?
Albigenese may have explained such phenomena as the work of God but not as the direct work of God, and the other Redemption and the Grace by the Cross as the positive and wilful work of God. This kind of dualistic explanation might have been distorted by their enemies, exaggerated by the RCC.
Matt, please explain the phenomena of the Earthquake in Peru first, before answering others.

Yesterday, my church had a visitor from Peru who lives in the region of Pisco, and he reported his church people had no injury, nobody in his church was hurt by the Quake, while the devout Roman Catholic people were struck by the Quake, and they are crying, and weeping. Please explain this situation in your term.

 

[Eliyahu]

At last, we get to the root of our differences.

You deny the operation of the Holy Spirit in the conception of Jesus Christ, and are confused about the nature of the Trinity. At this point, none of the rest of our discussions matter.

If you want help with this let me know. You can PM me if you want.

BGTF

BGTF,

Don't misunderstand about it.

There have been several thread where I explained the Birth of Jesus.
Jesus was born by the Holy Spirit, not by Mary.
Before He came out of Mary ( Gal 4:4, Matt 1:25), He was already born by the Holy Spirit and the Birth place of Jesus was in the womb of Mary. ( Matt 1:20)
I already explained about this many, many times since 2004.
The ovum of Mary was not designed to be fertilized with the Word of God, nor became a Sperm the Word of God.
Word of God came into the world, enfleshed as we read 1 Tim 3:16.

 

[Eliyahu]

BGTF,

You must remember this:
JN 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

When Jesus was in the womb of Mary, didn't He have this understanding and the belief that He IS before Abraham was?

Did Jesus get rid of all the brain that He had before, knowing Abraham, when He came into this world?

Remember this, Moses esteemed the Reproach for the Christ better than all the treasure in Egypt( Heb 11:26). Didn't Moses know about Christ?

Was it possible that Abraham anticipated the Day of Christ without knowing Him?

Doesn't Jesus identify Himself with the Christ whose days Abraham was anticipating and finally saw it?

When did Abrahm see the Day of Jesus?

You must be able to see the depth of the belief and thoughts which Albigenes had thought about.

 

[Matt Black]

Matt, please explain the phenomena of the Earthquake in Peru first, before answering others.

Yesterday, my church had a visitor from Peru who lives in the region of Pisco, and he reported his church people had no injury, nobody in his church was hurt by the Quake, while the devout Roman Catholic people were struck by the Quake, and they are crying, and weeping. Please explain this situation in your term.

Fallen world. Bad things happen. Rather than rely on "my term", let me turn to the words of our Lord and Saviour: Luke 13: 1-3

 

[Eliyahu]

Fallen world. Bad things happen. Rather than rely on "my term", let me turn to the words of our Lord and Saviour: Luke 13: 1-3

Yeah! they didn't repent and they continue not to repent there.

 

[Matt Black]

Bad things happen to good people too and vice versa: "For He causes the Sun to shine on the righteous and unrighteous alike."

 

[Eliyahu]

Bad things happen to good people too and vice versa: "For He causes the Sun to shine on the righteous and unrighteous alike."

I already mentioned it is a matter of Repentance.
Returning to the OP issue and about Albigenes' Dualism, we don't know exactly what and how they claimed the dualism. What we hear is the accusations by their enemies, RCC. RCC claim that they believed in 2 gods, one good god and another bad god. If so, they were not monotheists but the polytheists. Can you believe such claim while they were eager to translate the Bibles all the time?

My understanding is that they might have explained the worldwide phenomena as 2 categories, one worked out directly by God, the other worked out indirectly thru Satan deserted by God.
For example, God deserts some people to the hand of Satan as we read 1 Cor 5, and Romans 1:19-

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.

Usually, RCC argued with their opponents about the Gospel and the Fallacy of RCC vehemnently, then they knew their serious problems of Idolatry and goddess worship, prayer to the dead, purgatory, papacy, etc.
There must have been a huge arguments raised by Albigenes but RCC couldn't defend themselves in most of the arguments. Then they found a certain ambiguity in the arguments of Albigenes which RCC deemed easy to attack, then they exaggerated a certain contradiction of weakness of their belief, then condemned them as Heretics, burning all the literatures and writings by themselves. So, what we can learn thru RCC about Albigenes is that Albi's were simply heretics, believed in 2 gods and heretics. They cannot explain how Albigenes were eager to translate the Bible, to publish the Bilbe, to read the Bible.
However, from time to time we can get a certain glympse of the opponents of RCC thru the surviving literatures such as the Inquisitor's interogation report which I posted.
Albigenes refused the Papacy, rejected Idolatry, rejected Mary worshio, rejected Purgatory, rejected Clergy system but had Berbe (Elders) according to the Bible, they called the RCC the Harlot in the Revelation, Pope is the head of all the errors, believed all are to be called Brethren, rejected Infant Baptism which is absolutely right.

RCC never reported such fact positively. If we had them today, we could let them speak and advocate themselves. But what RCC did was absolutely the same as the Unbelievers, torturing and killing them and forfeting their properties. Did the Bible ask the church to rape the heretic women and torture and kill their male believers?

Read the Titus 3:10, As for Heretics, after the first and the second admonition, reject.
What RCC did and still do not repeal ( so that they may do it again in the future when they become powerful again) is this:
- Rape the women,
- Torture the male believers and kill them
- Bash their infants onto the rocks
- Forfeit their properties
- Burn their writings and cover up all their arguments
- Create new accusations and condemn them as Heretics with the charge of false accusations
- Hold the party with the money and property forfeited from them
- Threaten and warn other people with these examples.

This is the history of RCC throughout the past 1700 years.

However, God preserved His Story and there are the descendant of Albigenes today who truly accepted the Lord and believe Albigenes were condemned unjustly. Albigenes may be the group of believers who were mostly condemned and received the mostly unjust recognition.

 

[Eliyahu]

[FONT=바탕]Albigenses[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕]The name "Albigenses" is taken from the French town of Albi, 70 kilometers north-east of Toulouse, on the river Tarn. Albi was a major center of Catharist (Purist) activity. The doctrines of the Albigenses, when taken from their own writings, rather than from the writings of their enemies, was very baptistic. These people rejected the Catholic concept of the "Church" and formed simple congregations with pastors in the place of leadership. Enemies of the Albigenses thought they had no churches because they had no formal, visible organization of officers, etc. A (Catholic) synod at Toulouse in 1191 and at Albi in 1165 condemned the Albigenses for their rejection of infant baptism. With regard to the Word of God, the Albigenses accepted the scriptures over tradition. There have been many (false) charges made against the Albigenses, the most frequent of which was that of Manichaeism. This no doubt came about through the connection of the Albigenses and the Paulicians. No hard evidence is available to support this charge, except the dubious statements of their enemies. In his book, "The Glorious Recovery of the Vaudois, lxvii, London, 1857, Acland writes, "Care must be taken at this point, and too prompt credence should not be given the accuser. The Roman Catholic Church sought diligently for excuses to persecute. Even Luther was declared by the Synod of Sens to be a Manichaean. The celebrated Archbishop Ussher says that the charge 'of Manichaeanism on the Albigensian sect is evidently false.' It would be difficult to understand the Albigenses from this philosophical standpoint. They were not a metaphysical people. Theirs was not a philosophy, but a daily faith and practice..." The Albigenses were some of the most persecuted people on Earth in their day. The Catholics at first attempted to "convert" the Albigenses through ecclesiastical coercion. This failed largely because the Albigenses knew the Word of God! The Catholic Councils of Lateran II in 1139 and Tours in 1163 condemned them as heretics. The Count of Toulouse, Raymund IV, was forced, under threat of excommunication and interdict, to join in the crusades against his own subjects. This crusading army was led by the cruel Simon De Montfort and Arnold, the abbot of Citeaux. As an example of mans inhumanity to man, this period was one of the blackest spots in history. "Their thirst for blood and their unbounded rapacity continued to rage in spite of the feeble attempts of the pope to check them." (G.P. Fisher, History of the Christian Church, page 194). One instance will serve to show the nature of these persecutions. The town of Beziers was before the attacking armies. Rather than systematically seek out the Albigenses from the Catholic population the papal legate gave the order to "kill them all. The Lord knows His own." The blood thirsty crusaders obliged. Women and children were not spared. Almost 20,000 innocent people were slain in just this one attack. Further campaigns of terror were conducted in 1215-1218, 1226-1229, and 1232-1233. At the last, the business of the inquisition was entrusted to the Dominicans, called "the hounds of the Pope." So widespread and devastating were these crusades, that the testimony of Christ was all but exterminated in the South of France. Those who did escape fled to Italy and Germany where they sowed the seeds of the Anabaptist movement in Europe. Some returned from whence they came - to Bulgaria, where the Bogomils continued to exist. The Albigenses were also called Paterines, meaning "sufferers."[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][/FONT]
http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0547.htm