Cause and Effect/Conditions of Salvation

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

For every effect there is said to be a cause. If one is saved there must be a cause. If God is the sole cause, and no conditions are in effect, God must of necessity be the sole cause of salvation. If God is the sole cause of salvation, man plays no other part than a lucky recipient of salvation, and those that are lost are lost for a lack of being chosen to salvation. If God is the sole cause of salvation, He of necessity would be the sole cause of those not receiving salvation. In any event, logic demands that double predestination rules, just as Calvin clearly understood it to be so.

The end of the argument that God is the sole cause of salvation and man plays absolutely no part, and the denial of any and all conditions set forth to enable one to be in a position to accept salvation, has no logical ends other than deterministic fatalism and double predestiantion. If there are no conditions for man to fulfill, all is determined by God and that from eternity, some to salvation and others to damnation.

What is amazing to me is for some to deny conditions of salvation yet cry foul when the label of determinism is placed upon their theological system. If in fact God has made the determination of who will be saved apart from any and all conditions, determinism is inescapable. All is indeed determined by God when conditions to salvation are denied.

It is further amazing to me that some that cry “It is not by our will” that we are saved, denying all conditions, then tell us that man must 'accept' salvation in order to receive it. Pray tell us what acceptance is other than an act of the will??? In one breath they say there are no conditions to salvation and then in the very next breath make an act of the will a condition to receiving. So much for denying conditions to salvation.

 

[Cutter]

Does free will play any role in salvation? Is one able to accept or reject salvation?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Cutter: Does free will play any role in salvation? Is one able to accept or reject salvation?

HP: It does not play any role in the offer itself nor in the sacrifice made, for that involves the grounds of salvation,i.e., the grace and mercy of God alone. Free will, involving repentance, faith, and obedience indeed is involved in the stated conditions of salvation, without which determinism rules and that by necessity.

 

[steaver]

For every effect there is said to be a cause. If one is saved there must be a cause. If God is the sole cause, and no conditions are in effect, God must of necessity be the sole cause of salvation. If God is the sole cause of salvation, man plays no other part than a lucky recipient of salvation, and those that are lost are lost for a lack of being chosen to salvation. If God is the sole cause of salvation, He of necessity would be the sole cause of those not receiving salvation. In any event, logic demands that double predestination rules, just as Calvin clearly understood it to be so.

The end of the argument that God is the sole cause of salvation and man plays absolutely no part, and the denial of any and all conditions set forth to enable one to be in a position to accept salvation, has no logical ends other than deterministic fatalism and double predestiantion. If there are no conditions for man to fulfill, all is determined by God and that from eternity, some to salvation and others to damnation.

What is amazing to me is for some to deny conditions of salvation yet cry foul when the label of determinism is placed upon their theological system. If in fact God has made the determination of who will be saved apart from any and all conditions, determinism is inescapable. All is indeed determined by God when conditions to salvation are denied.

It is further amazing to me that some that cry “It is not by our will” that we are saved, denying all conditions, then tell us that man must 'accept' salvation in order to receive it. Pray tell us what acceptance is other than an act of the will??? In one breath they say there are no conditions to salvation and then in the very next breath make an act of the will a condition to receiving. So much for denying conditions to salvation.

When you speak of "logic", how do you incorporate logic into to the word of God? Don't we simply accept what God says by faith even if we cannot logically comprehend all that the mind of God consist of?

Just curious. Not implying anything.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

For every effect there is said to be a cause. If one is saved there must be a cause. If God is the sole cause, and no conditions are in effect, God must of necessity be the sole cause of salvation. If God is the sole cause of salvation, man plays no other part than a lucky recipient of salvation, and those that are lost are lost for a lack of being chosen to salvation. If God is the sole cause of salvation, He of necessity would be the sole cause of those not receiving salvation. In any event, logic demands that double predestination rules, just as Calvin clearly understood it to be so.

Did Calvin believe those unsaved were predestined to that end? I don't know, I am asking you. You seem to have a fixation on Calvinism so you should know what he preached when it comes to what you call "double predestination".

:jesus:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Did Calvin believe those unsaved were predestined to that end? I don't know, I am asking you. You seem to have a fixation on Calvinism so you should know what he preached when it comes to what you call "double predestination".

:jesus:

Isn't it logical to suggest that if God predestined those who are elect by default he predestined those who are not elect? Choosing not to choose is still a choice. Also How did sin enter Lucifer's heart? How did it get there to begin with?

 

[BobRyan]

Free will is the only solution.

It allows for the Bible fact that God makes all things sinless and perfect - and yet sinless Lucifer - can later "choose" to fall - while sinless Gabriel chooses to remain faithful to God. And the fact that God does not "make Lucifer make each and every little decision in his life" - God is not to blame for them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: When you speak of "logic", how do you incorporate logic into to the word of God? Don't we simply accept what God says by faith even if we cannot logically comprehend all that the mind of God consist of?

Just curious. Not implying anything.

HP: God instills within everyman certain universal principles, without which truth could never be ascertained. God grants to man powers or reason and logic, and to approach Scripture as if though devoid of the abilities and universal principles of justice God instills within man is to open oneself up to pure deception. The Word of God is subject to interpretation, and no interpretation of Scripture can be relied on when in direct opposition to the basic universal truths of justice He instills within the breast of every sentient being. Truth never contradicts truth.

One such universal first truth of reason is that 'in order to be blamed or praised one must have the possibility of a contrary choice.' To develop an interpretation of Scripture contrary to this universal first truth of reason, planted within the breast of every sentient being by God Himself, is to cavil at truth itself. If man does not have the ability of contrary choice at first light of moral agency, it is not only absurd but wickedly absurd to blame and punish man for resulting choices driven by necessity due to some inherited nature.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Did Calvin believe those unsaved were predestined to that end? I don't know, I am asking you. You seem to have a fixation on Calvinism so you should know what he preached when it comes to what you call "double predestination.”

HP: Yes, Calvin accepted double predestination as an inescapable end of the system of theology he supported. I cannot find quickly ever place he mentions it but here are some quick ones that clearly point to this conclusion.
On page 951 of his Institutes starting on line 8-11. “though I should confess a hundred times that God is the author of it (speaking of their sinful nature and or guilt)-which is very true….”

Calvin pp948 approx line 36- “it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God’s secret plan.” …..pp 949 approx line 26 “for his will is, and rightfully ought to be, the cause of all things that are.” Pp952” With Augustine I say: the lord hath created those whom he unquestionably foreknew would go to destruction. This happened because he willed it so.” Pp 954 “ by his predetermined plan he hath so willed.” speaking of the evil God foreknew. Pp 954 “he so ordains by his plan and will that among men some were born destined for certain death from the womb, who should glorify his name by their own destruction.” On pp 954 Calvin states that not only did God foresee human events, “he determined them by his decision.” Continued on page 955 “it is clear that all things that place rather by his determination and bidding.” He continues on pp955 “ It ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision.”

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinkingstuff: Isn't it logical to suggest that if God predestined those who are elect by default he predestined those who are not elect? Choosing not to choose is still a choice. Also How did sin enter Lucifer's heart? How did it get there to begin with?

HP: There you go thinking again!:thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Free will is the only solution.

It allows for the Bible fact that God makes all things sinless and perfect - and yet sinless Lucifer - can later "choose" to fall - while sinless Gabriel chooses to remain faithful to God. And the fact that God does not "make Lucifer make each and every little decision in his life" - God is not to blame for them.

HP: A hearty Amen to that BR. :thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: When you speak of "logic", how do you incorporate logic into to the word of God? Don't we simply accept what God says by faith even if we cannot logically comprehend all that the mind of God consist of?

HP:Certainly there are truths of Scripture that could be said to defy logic, the Virgin birth, the Incarnation, etc. Still yet, neither do these truths that defy logic contradict or stand in stark contradiction to first truths of reason concerning truths of immutable justice. Problem arise when we have stark contradictions between our interpretations of Scripture and other truths such as first truths of reason. Truth never contradicts truth no matter what realm it is found or revealed within. Of a truth, God has revealed truth to man in more areas than Scripture alone.

 

[billwald]

>For every effect there is said to be a cause.

But it is not correct. Random events occur. Transistors are based upon random events occurring.

The thread problem is resolved when one realizes that conversion is the human response to one's prior regeneration.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BW: But it is not correct. Random events occur. Transistors are based upon random events occurring.

HP: You certainly must live in a helter skelter world unknown to me Bill. Could the possibility exist that such as to you appears to be 'random' might have a cuase simply not known to your finite mind? If you have found an effect without a cause you are the first that I have ever heard of.

BW: The thread problem is resolved when one realizes that conversion is the human response to one's prior regeneration

HP: Maybe you can be the first on the list to provide the first scintilla of Scriptural evidence, or evidence from first truths of reason, matters of fact, or truths of immutable justice that would substantiate the notion that God regenerates the soul prior to salvation. If the only evidence you cna find is straight from Augustine or Calvin’s Institutes, go ahead and offer it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

HP: You certainly must live in a helter skelter world unknown to me Bill. Could the possibility exist that such as to you appears to be 'random' might have a cuase simply not known to your finite mind? If you have found an effect without a cause you are the first that I have ever heard of.


HP: Maybe you can be the first on the list to provide the first scintilla of Scriptural evidence, or evidence from first truths of reason, matters of fact, or truths of immutable justice that would substantiate the notion that God regenerates the soul prior to salvation. If the only evidence you cna find is straight from Augustine or Calvin’s Institutes, go ahead and offer it.

Electricity is reliant on the world of quantum physics which is very random. FYI.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinkingstuff, how does anything you said concerning electricity provide evidence for 'effects without a cause'???

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Thinkingstuff, how does anything you said concerning electricity provide evidence for 'effects without a cause'???

I only brought up electricty because billwald mentioned transistors. Electricity brings us down to the level of quantum mechanics which is very random and can't be made sense of really. I was just suggesting that this was what billwald was trying to state. The universe as we currently understand it is broken into two opposing theories. The theory of the Large which can be very cause and effect and the theory of the minute which is quantum physics and everything is up for grabs. Cause and effect bring about predictability. Quantum Mechanics has a very hard time of predicting anything.

I'm just hypothesising here but consider this at what level does the universe become so? The ancient greeks believed that the ancient world was chaos controlled by unpredictable forces called the Titans. Zeus and the new gods brought order to the disorder. Consider Genesis here. In the begining God created the heavens and the Earth. The earth was void and formless. Is this an attestation to quantum mechanics? Unpredictable nature is the basis of all things and as the quantinty of chaos increases in magnitued slowly order is brought about? And if this is how God operates who's to say how election takes place?

On the other hand I don't think God is just giving a philisophical excersise when he says that he desires that all men be saved or that Jesus died for all men. Those two truism work against the double predestination consept. else God would be a liar. The only variable in this to keep men from heaven then must be free will. Calvin cannot believe in free will post fall. And with the nature of evil we must asked how if all things are created good (submitting free will to God's soveriegnty) could Satan consider evil in his heart save it was put there to begin with. Free will then by the nature of it allow for an evil. Then God in his soveriegnty must on some level must allow for evil in which case would he not then be responsible for it? But it contrast against his nature thus we are stuck with a conundrum.

 

[steaver]

Free will then by the nature of it allow for an evil. Then God in his soveriegnty must on some level must allow for evil in which case would he not then be responsible for it? But it contrast against his nature thus we are stuck with a conundrum.

Interesting question.

God created freewill. God then creates an opportunity for this freewill to express itself knowing full well the creature will freely choose evil.

Did God cause the creature to fail by giving the creature a freewill that He knew would cause the creature to fail? If He did not know what would happen by giving His creature a freewill is one thing, but He knew and he still gave the person a freewill anyways.

Of course this same freewill allows the person to choose right again even after having chosen wrong. So the person is responsible for how they govern their own freewill.

But the question still remains, why would God create a freewill in the first place knowing full well the creature would choose to disobey?

God is behind it all, yet God is not to be blamed for the sin. This is a puzzle indeed.

God tempts no man, yet God placed a tree in Adam's reach knowing full well that Satan would tempt Adam to eat and that Adam would indeed eat. Yet God is not to blame.

Why allow satan to tempt? Is not God capable of preventing satan? Why place a tree there and say don't eat from it? Why not just keep all temptations out of Adam's view and satan far away from Adam and all of creation?

Things to ponder.....


:jesus:

 

[Mississippi John]

Cause and Effect vs. Mercy and Grace



A never ending battle....for some.

I'll take mercy and grace everytime !

 

[Amy.G]

But the question still remains, why would God create a freewill in the first place knowing full well the creature would choose to disobey?

Because there is no other way for God to receive genuine love from His creation. There must be a choice to love or hate.