Charles Finney

[Bible-boy]

I am starting this thread because a discussion of Charles Finney popped up in the Slain in the Spirit (SITS) thread and we do not wish to drive that thread off topic.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Some Calvinists also dislike Rev. Finney because he taught a deeper life than his Presbyterian pastor/mentor.

 

[Bible-boy]

DHK replied with the following:

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

Some Calvinists also dislike Rev. Finney because he taught a deeper life than his Presbyterian pastor/mentor. Better stop here; this is off the subject.

You might want to start a thread on Finney. He was a heretic. Here is some information on him:

Finney’s Theology?

One need go no further than the table of contents of his Systematic Theology to learn that Finney’s entire theology revolved around human morality. Chapters one through five are on moral government, obligation, and the unity of moral action; chapters six and seven are "Obedience Entire," as chapters eight through fourteen discuss attributes of love, selfishness, and virtues and vice in general. Not until the twenty-first chapter does one read anything that is especially Christian in its interest, on the atonement. This is followed by a discussion of regeneration, repentance, and faith. There is one chapter on justification followed by six on sanctification. In other words, Finney did not really write a Systematic Theology, but a collection of essays on ethics.

But that is not to say that Finney’s Systematic Theology does not contain some significant statements of theology.

First, in answer to the question, "Does a Christian cease to be a Christian, whenever he commits a sin?", Finney answers:

"Whenever he sins, he must, for the time being, cease to be holy. This is self-evident. Whenever he sins, he must be condemned; he must incur the penalty of the law of God ... If it be said that the precept is still binding upon him, but that with respect to the Christian, the penalty is forever set aside, or abrogated, I reply, that to abrogate the penalty is to repeal the precept, for a precept without penalty is no law. It is only counsel or advice. The Christian, therefore, is justified no longer than he obeys, and must be condemned when he disobeys or Antinomianism is true ... In these respects, then, the sinning Christian and the unconverted sinner are upon precisely the same ground (p. 46)."

Finney believed that God demanded absolute perfection, but instead of that leading him to seek his perfect righteousness in Christ, he concluded that "... full present obedience is a condition of justification. But again, to the question, can man be justified while sin remains in him? Surely he cannot, either upon legal or gospel principles, unless the law be repealed ... But can he be pardoned and accepted, and justified, in the gospel sense, while sin, any degree of sin, remains in him? Certainly not" (p. 57).

Finney declares of the Reformation’s formula simul justus et peccator or "simultaneously justified and sinful," "This error has slain more souls, I fear, than all the Universalism that ever cursed the world." For, "Whenever a Christian sins he comes under condemnation, and must repent and do his first works, or be lost" (p.60).

A DISTURBING LEGACY
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[DHK]

As great a "revivalist" as Finney may have reputed to be, his salvation message remains "salvation by works."
DHK

 

[Rippon]

Nettleton, his older contemporary , was a much sounder man in the faith . He was a solid Calvinist and was an evangelist . I was ready to say " and yet an evangelist " . But there is no contradiction between being a Calvinist and being an evangelist . The apostle Paul , Whitefield and many others are testimonies to that fact . Church history is ignored or distored among many professors of Fundamentalism and Evangelicals today . It is quite a shame . But to be informed is not a priority for many . Finney's " theology " is also embraced by millions these days . For shame , for shame .

 

[Ray Berrian]

Finney did believe in salvation by faith plus works but this often keep saints in fellowship with the Lord rather than giving them a license to sin.

My point is, though his theology was flawed as is Calvinism, nevertheless many people were saved under his ministry. He was a mighty evangelist for the Lord.

And as to the Apostle Paul being a Calvinist--that is totally off the scope and wrong, Rippon.

Finney believed in living a holy life emphasizing a true life of sanctification and that Christians should live like Christ did; but to some Christians they still like to pick every servant of the Lord apart.

When one of you accomplishes as much as these men of God, we will take time to go over some of your erring theology.

 

[Bible-boy]

Teaching salvation by faith plus anything else is simply wrong (a false gospel) and you ought to acknowledge this biblical fact regardless of who the man is/was that taught the nonsense.

 

[Bible-boy]

A Calvinist is a person that follows the teachings of John Calvin and his immediate successors. Therefore, it is impossible for the Apostle Paul to have been a "Calvinist" since he pre-dates John Calvin by just a few hundred centuries.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bible-boy,

While I agree with you that Finney's theology was flawed he still was used by the Lord in spreading the true Gospel about saving faith in our Lord. If I ever believe anything I really believe this! If we are not careful we can become too judmental about what other servants of the Lord are doing for Him. I never want to be among that number.

Justification is once for all and in the Christian life there are mountain top experiences and also dark valleys that the Lord takes His people through to teach us lessons or to discipline us in our lives of sanctification.

Finney's Gospel is the same Gospel unto eternal life that I believe and preached for many years and it is the same Gospel about salvation through Jesus that you cherish. Do not let your teachers force you into a mold that God is displeased with within His Kingdom.

Yes, all true preachers must believe in the Deity of Christ in order to be saved but after that you will find a lot of error being preached by sincere men and women of God. They need our prayers and guidance rather than telling other people they are false prophets.

 

[Rippon]

Really ? I guess I don't know my Church History . There were a lot of Calvinists before John Calvin ( tongue-in-cheek ) . Augustine , Bradwardine , Wycliffe ... Oh that's right , I already did this thread more than a month ago I think . The topic was on who originated Calvinism -- it wasn't John Calvin or even Augustine or Paul , it was the Lord Himself -- it is Bible doctrine .

And as many Reformed folks have said so many times on this board I too became a Calvinist without reading John Calvin . It was years later . I searched the Scripture and came upon the explicitly clear teachings of the doctrine of grace .

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Rippon:
Really ? I guess I don't know my Church History . There were a lot of Calvinists before John Calvin ( tongue-in-cheek ) . Augustine , Bradwardine , Wycliffe ... Oh that's right , I already did this thread more than a month ago I think . The topic was on who originated Calvinism -- it wasn't John Calvin or even Augustine or Paul , it was the Lord Himself -- it is Bible doctrine .

And as many Reformed folks have said so many times on this board I too became a Calvinist without reading John Calvin . It was years later . I searched the Scripture and came upon the explicitly clear teachings of the doctrine of grace .

My problem is not with what they taught. My problem is with labeling them with the name of a man (and his followers) that post-dates them by centuries. Since we agree that they all taught sound biblical doctrine, that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant, infallable Word of God, and that Christ Himself is indeed God, why not just call them Christians and avoid an unnecessary debate over a "hot-button" name? Anyway, this thread is not about Calvinists or John Calvin. So let's stick to the topic of Charles Finney.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Finney's Gospel is the same Gospel unto eternal life that I believe and preached for many years and it is the same Gospel about salvation through Jesus that you cherish. Do not let your teachers force you into a mold that God is displeased with within His Kingdom.

If you preach a gospel of Salvation by faith plus works (the same as Finney) you are preaching a false gospel and should stop doing so, recant, repent, and start teaching a gospel of Salvation by faith alone.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Yes, all true preachers must believe in the Deity of Christ in order to be saved but after that you will find a lot of error being preached by sincere men and women of God. They need our prayers and guidance rather than telling other people they are false prophets.

They need more than just our prayers. They need us to confront their false teaching. They need us to guide them into sound doctrine. They need us to call on them to recant their false teachings and repent of their leading people astray and into the bondage of works. They need us to encourage them in the teaching of sound biblical doctrine and the true gospel of Salvation by faith through grace.

 

[DHK]

There are many that believe in the deity of Christ and are not saved. Catholics are one such group. Where does the Bible say that believing in the deity of Christ is the only criteria for salvation. I don't get that out of the Bible. Is this the new gospel according to Ray Berrian??
Finney taught a false gospel; a gospel of reformation, not regeneration;
a gospel of entire sanctification, not justification by faith.
He taught heresy.
As with the Charistmatics your standard of judgement is how large the crowds a person can draw. If the church is large then they must be blessed of God. That is your criteria. Thus the Charismatics and people like Finney were blessed of God. This is what I see in your posts.
The majority is rarely right Ray. Most often the majority is wrong.
In a nation like Pakistan one can get huge crowds chanting death to the Christians. Will you agree with their theology also? Why not? Large crowds, good theology as far as they are concerned. Must be blessed of God since they draw many people. This is your reasoning, your standard. Large crowds equals God's blessing.
Please learn that one man and God make a majority no matter how big the crowd is. It is the man that stands on the Word of God that God is concerned about, and that God bestows his blessing on. Finney was a heretic who preached a false gospel inspite of the crowds that came with itching ears to hear what he had to say.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

Rippon,

You know enough history to know what many Calvinists refused to admit to me, and that is that Augustine, the Roman Catholic theologian started the whole doctrinal error called Calvinism. John merely organized and copied his theology which was mixed with Platonism and Aristotelian philosophy--thus the determinism of a God Who send men and women to Hell at will. Two Roman Catholics don't make a correct Christian theology.

Please, don't blame the Lord and the Apostle Paul for foolish quasi-Christian theology which was birthed from Plato and Aristotle who did not even believe in the God of the Bible, our Lord. God loves all lost souls [John 3:16; II Peter 3:9; I Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 2:9 and many other passages].

I do not see Rev. Finney's error as serious as blaming the Lord for men and women ending up in the fires of Hell, plus the sickening, wretched and foul idea of Limited Atonement.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

I do not see Rev. Finney's error as serious as blaming the Lord for men and women ending up in the fires of Hell, plus the sickening, wretched and foul idea of Limited Atonement.

You don't see it as serious Ray?
You don't have to be justified by faith to get to heaven? like Finney believed.
You get to heaven by your works, like Finney believed?
In order to get to Heaven you must be entirely sanctified--perfect without sin?

Are these your doctrinal beliefs Ray?
DHK