Chastened in Hell?

[Lacy Evans]

We have a few threads going about various aspects of the doctrine known as Millennial Exclusion. There are many Millennial Exclusionists that don't believe that a Christian who misses the Kingdom will be placed in the underworld (hell). (I only say that to say that ME does not stand or fall on the Hell question. )

However, I believe that before you reject the "Hell part", these questions need some serious consideration. So . . .

?????Does the phrase "ye belong to Christ" in Mark 9:41 mean that John was eternally saved?

Mark 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

??????In verse 9:50, who is Jesus addressing?

Mark 9:50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another

????In Mark 9:38, John is speaking. When the Lord answers him, who does the "thy" (second person singular) refer to in Mark 9:43?

Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.


Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

?????This guy in Luke 12 has two choices:Be wise and faithful or be a drunkard who beats his fellow servants. His behavior is the only issue (Works). His status as the Lord's servant is never questioned. It's the same guy with two paths to follow. What is a "portion with the unbelievers"?

Luke 12:42-46
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Lacy

 

[BobRyan]

Does the Bible declare that fiery hell is a "protestant purgatory where saints are sent to be purged of sin and then go to heaven" OR does God say it is the final end of the wicked the same one "perpared for the DEVIL and his angels"

Let the reader decide --


Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear [b]those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

Christ argues that we should not fear first death scenarios – but rather second death. Do now fear what wicked men plan to do regarding the first death – and in fact DO – to the saints. “Kill the body” since in those things they are not able to “kill” the soul.

This is a good place to stop and admit what happens TO THE BODY in this FIRST death case of “kill body but NOT soul”. In this case the body is BOTH killed AND destroyed to the point of reducing to DUST. Christ argues that what is ONLY done to the BODY in the first death – is done to BOTH body AND SOUL in the second death!

Rather fear what God plans to do – and in fact WILL do in the fiery hell to come – to “destroy BOTH body AND soul” IN fiery hell -- doing that which sinful men CAN NOT do to their fellow man. He does not merely say – “fear Him who could choose to destroy BOTH body and soul if he should ever be inclined to do such a thing” – rather He states it in the affirmative saying WHERE and when he will do it “IN fiery hell”

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

2 Peter 2:6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. (destroy - Apollumi )


They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God. Just as God said that “BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED” in fiery hell Matt 10:28 – so we see that the everlasting fire – the eternal fire of Jude “destroyed” the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Don’t miss the fact that eternal fire is explicitly said to have already fallen on earth. We have a clear and literal example of eternal fire in history according to the Word of God.

This is the same “everlasting fire” that we see Christ speaking of in Matt 25
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

But the man-made traditions of some Christian groups today would this Bible truth and spin it very far from where we find it in scripture.

 

[Lacy Evans]

If your argument is that OSAS is not true, then let's debate it on another thread. This one is for those who have accepted OSAS but have questions about the degree of judgment we are subject at the JSOC.

lacy

 

[BobRyan]

The fact that OSAS is not true (discussed on the OSAS thread) that that Man is NOT immortal -- has EVERYTHING to do with this thread because once you have those truths correct there is NO possibility of a "purgatory" like argument for hell because ALL even SATAN will FULLY pay their debt eventually -- be reduced to ASHES and utterly "destoyed".

NO coming back from that.

ONCE you have a "no coming back from that state" all the issues raised in the OP are resolved.

HOWEVER as you point out - if you take the wrong turn on those two doctrines THEN come to this OP - THEN and ONLY THEN you have the possibility of a purgatory-like-view-of fiery hell.

You ALSO have a pretty good basis for prayers to the dead.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[James_Newman]

Revelation 20:13
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Oh, I guess the word of God straightened that out. Hell is NOT the final stop for the devil or the wicked.

 

[BobRyan]

Is this the part where we go into the DIFFERENCe in scripture between "fiery hell" Ghennah (Matt 10:28) and the GRAVE (HADES) Rev 20:13 which was the place that DAVID went according to Acts 2???

Because if it is -- just say so. This would be a quick end to this idea of purgatory being hell.

 

[James_Newman]

I don't speak greek, brother. Hell is hell.

 

[DHK]

I don't speak greek, brother. Hell is hell.

It is simple enough in English. Hell (a temporary place of suffering) will be cast into the Lake of Fire (a permanent place of suffering). Like you say "Hell is Hell." For all intent and purposes there is not much difference. Hell, a place of fire and torment, is swallowed up by the Lake of Fire, a greater place of fire and torment. A drop of water is swallowed up in a glass of water. The drop doesn't disappear it is only assimilated with the rest of the "drops" or flames, as it may be in the Lake of Fire.
And the "dead" that is, the spiritually unsaved, will be cast into that Lake of fire with them to suffer eternal torment, as it says in Revelation 20:10

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't speak greek, brother. Hell is hell.

Fine then use an "EXACT" translation like the NASB where the difference is handled "for you" by the translators.

Rev 20 NASB
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and

death and Hades[/

b] gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades[/b] were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the [b]second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Or read the Bible commentaries that "explain it" for you --

Here Jamieson,Fausset,Brown[/b] show that the term "Hades" is used to represent "grave" in Rev 20 not "Hell fire".

13. death and hell--Greek, "Hades." The essential identity of the dying and risen body is hereby shown; for the sea and grave give up their dead. The body that sinned or served God shall, in righteous retribution, be the body also that shall suffer or be rewarded. The "sea" may have a symbolical [CLUVER from AUGUSTINE], besides the literal meaning, as, in Re 8:8; 12:12; 13:1; 18:17, 19; so "death" and "hell" are personifications (compare Re 21:1). But the literal sense need hardly be departed from: all the different regions wherein the bodies and souls of men had been, gave them up.

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020



JFB show that there is no way to equivocate between "hell" (Hades - the grave) in Rev 20 and the fiery Ghenna of Matt 10.

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown on Matt 10

28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul--In Lu 12:4, "and after that have no more that they can do."
but rather fear him--In Luke (Lu 12:5) this is peculiarly solemn, "I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear," even Him
which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell--A decisive proof this that there is a hell for the body as well as the soul in the eternal world; in other words, that the torment that awaits the lost will have elements of suffering adapted to the material as well as the spiritual part of our nature, both of which, we are assured, will exist for ever. In the corresponding warning contained in Luke (Lu 12:4), Jesus calls His disciples "My friends," as if He had felt that such sufferings constituted a bond of peculiar tenderness between Him and them.

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=mt&chapter=010

John and Jacob Abbott point out that in Rev 20 "Hades is the grave"
Verse 13
And hell; the grave.

http://www.studylight.org/com/ain/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020


Acts 2 -- NASB


(Psal 16:10, NASB)
>>For Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt Thou allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.


#1. The term in Psalm Sheol, the term in Acts 2 - Hades - Both ref the grave AS
the texts show (the tomb).

#2. EVEN in the Acts 2 text - PETER HIMSELF makes his case by applying
PSalms 16 to BOTH David and Christ and SAYS the DIFFERENCE is
that David IS STILL THERE whereas Christ was RAISED from the dead.

The CONTRAST is between David who REMAINS in the tomb - vs Christ who was RAISED from it.

Acts 2:
24 "" But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
25 ""For David says of Him, " I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
26 "THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES[/b], NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28 "YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
29 "" Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

 

[BobRyan]

It is simple enough in English. Hell (a temporary place of suffering) will be cast into the Lake of Fire (a permanent place of suffering). Like you say "Hell is Hell."

Hmm - and if "english was good enough for John it is good enough for me" eh DHK??:tonofbricks: :BangHead:

(It would appear that the LESS the reader knows the better it is for DHK's views):laugh: :applause:

 

[Hope of Glory]

JFB show that there is no way to equivocate between "hell" (Hades - the grave) in Rev 20 and the fiery Ghenna of Matt 10 and the Lake of Fire.

There, I fixed the quote for you.

 

[BobRyan]

Hey wait a second - Jamieson Fausset brown did not deal with the relationship between the Lake of Fire and the fiery hell (ghenna) of Mat 10:28 -- (if you read the quote I gave) -- nothing stated in EITHER JFB quote would preclude identifying the fiery hell of Matt 10 :28 with the Lake of fire "Second Death" that is the doom of the wicked.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Oops. I should have said, "I fixed the statement", not "I fixed the quote". Sorry.

Hades, gehenna, and lake of fire are all different. Tartarus, FWIW also seems to be different.

 

[BobRyan]

#1. There is no "fiery ghenna" tossed into "The Second Death" the Fire and Brimstone "Lake of fire".

#2. John NEVER uses the term "Fiery Ghenna". And those Bible authors that DO reference "fiery ghenna" DON't use the term lake of fire.

#3. It is apparent then that the fire-and-brimstone "second death" judgment John speaks of is the SAME as the "fiery ghenna" other authors use.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

BobRyan,

I read your posts agrue about hell lately. You intepreting Matt. 10:28 - 'destroy' in literal. Your belief sounds like annihilationism. I do not agree with your intepreting.

First, right now, all unbelievers are already in hell. Hell is a temporary place.

Luke chapter 16:19-31 telling us the true story of a rich man is being tornment in hell. His soul is not sleeping or faded away. His soul is still alive and actual having feeling and action.

Remember, we all have the 'first death', because we received sin comes from Adam, he sinned and died, so, therefore, we all shall died period according Romans 5:12.

But, the true faithful servants shall NOT taste of 'the second death'. Which it speaks of lake of fire is the eternality final destiny of punishment.

These who are already in the hell are already appointed and AWAIT for the coming judgment day, they shall received their second death in the lake of fire, because their names are not found written in the book of fire- Hebrews 9:27; & Rev. 20:11-15.

In Rev. 14:11 says, "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER, and they have NO rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosever receiveth the mark of his name."

This verse telling us very clear, it speaks of the lake of fire, itself is the future final eternality punishment place.

***Rev. 13:8-9 warn, "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are NOT written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, LET HIM HEAR."

It warns us, if anyone worship the beast, or receive the mark, so. therefore, their names are NOT written in the book of life. Then, what's happen to them? Cast them into the lake of fire! - Rev. 20:14-15


***Again, notice Rev. 14:11 warns, if anyone worship the beast, or receive the mark,(obivously, it refers to Rev. 13:8-"...shall worship him(beast), whose names are NOT written in the book of life") shall be cast into the fire, and they shall be tornement forever and ever, NO rest all day, or all night! Obivously, this verse doesn't teaching annihilationism. Rev. 14:11 speaks of literal phsyically.

Now back to Matt. 10:28 again.

I would like to say something on 'destroy'.

I understand it so well. It don't mean that, it is shall be no longer being exist or faded away. It is the picture of doom.

Same with Matt. 7:13 says, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for the wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat."

Word- 'destruction' of Matt. 7:13 is not always mean literal meaning, it gives us the picture of doom of people's future final eternality destiny with punishment, and their hope is VAIN!

BobRyan, I believe both hell and lake of fire are literal horrible places, where all unbelievers shall having great suffering there forever and ever.

Mark 9:44,46,48 say: "Where their worm dieth NOT, and the fire is NOT QUENCHED.", "Where their worm dieth NOT, and the fire is NOT QUENCHED.", "Where their worm dieth NOT, and the fire is NOT QUENCHED." Christ spoken them three times in King James Version. I do believe Christ was actually spoken on them three times, not once! Because Jesus warned on hell more than anyone of us. Because, He cares and love us SO MUCH, that, He doesn't want all of us go to everlasting fire.

Mark 9:44,46,48 are not limited only to 'hell', even, it also speak of lake of fire!

Christ tells us, fire will never, never stop or fade away. Fire will be continue keep burning and tornmenting people forever and ever.

Interesting, in Isaiah 66:24 says, "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me for their worm shall NOT DIE, NEITHER shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be an abhorring."

Wow! Obivously, Christ quoted Isaiah 66:24, as He spoken of Mark 9:44,46,48.

Obivous, Mark 9:44,46,48 don't teach of annihilationism.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!