Christian Civil Wars

Good post David!

What I think, and this is my own opinion, is that when a person is saved as such, he probably has an idea of what it is about as far as he can understand. Yet there comes a point where he may well have a revelation of what Jesus Christ really is all about after a certain point. It is in that moment I believe that it becomes clear what matters and what does not.

In any event David, it is good to hear your testimony of what God is doing in Jamacia, may He bring the same revival to Australia too!

 

It is true that differences in tradition often do not amount to a hill of beans. But in your list above you include things like the atheist's model of "origins" that we know today as evolutionism.

John thought that the literal foundation of the literal fact that Christ is literally the creator was important enough to make it the starting point for his Gospel (John 1:1-3).

In Christ's day you could be pagan or Jew. You could worship false gods and go to hell or you could worship the one true God and go to heaven like the pre-cross saints of Heb 11.

YET in that context we have the Sadducees and the Pharisees debating over the resurrection. So given that there were still so many pagans in the world - was the subject of "resurrection" important anyway??

In Matt 22 Christ gets into that very debate. This is an in-house Jewish debate for those ALREADY choosing against Paganism and already choosing the one true God. Should they just drop it?

In 1Cor 15 Paul makes the right focus on the resurrection the entire hope and basis for the Gospel's future promise to the Christian.

in 1Thess 4 Paul makes the fact of the resurrection the primary source of comfort for Christians that have lost friends and family to death.

Evolutionism destroys faith in God's Word, destroys the basis and foundation for the gospel, destroys the moral compass for society so that abortion seems ok and then so also gay rights. (A moral decay chain is initiated with evolutionism "given enough time" and the right environment the dark plant will bloom).

So in answer to your question - althought there are petty squabbles that don't amount to a hill of beans -- atheism's evolutionism is not one of them.

I believe that many Catholics will be in heaven and are saved -- but I also believe Catholicism promotes truck loads of error (including evolutionism) and that millions of the saints were slaughtered over a period of many centuries by the RCC DUE to that real and significant doctrinal error.

Imagine yourself standing up to the established church of Euorope and burning at the stake for refusing to worship Mary.

In Christ,

Bob

 

By that do you mean that Jesus had no theology - no doctrine? No teaching about salvation, sin, God?

Do you mean that the Apostles were not leaders in the church?

Do you mean that the list of 1Cor 12 does not provide an order of authority and leadership in the Church?

In 1Tim 3 (and in chapter 5) we see Elders and Deacons discussed - this shows order and "organized churches".

In Acts 15 we see centralized authority and government where area churches (even remote churches) submit to the decisions of a centralized council.

Or do you mean something else when you speak of "organized religion"?

This is a good and nobel thing you research on this thread. Keep going.

In Christ,

Bob

 

My point is that if you look at the debate Christ engaged in in Mark 7 "The traditions of the church" that replaced the commandments of God - He "did" seem to think that error "mattered".

In 1Tim chapter 1 you find that the entire reason that Paul left Timothy behind at Ephesus was JUST to solve the problem of bad doctrinal error being promoted in the church of Ephesus.

In Acts 20 Paul argues that AFTER his departure grevious wolves would arise FROM AMONG your own selves drawing away disciples "After themselves".

In 2Cor 11 Paul fears that those "preaching another Christ" might be accepted in the church.

In Gal 1 Paul says "IF ANYONE comes preaching a different Gospel than we have already given you - let him be accursed". He even says "IF WE or an ANGEL FROM heaven" should come preaching another gospel - let him be accursed.

In 2Thess 2:1-4 Paul predicts a falling-away from the truth will happen in the church prior to the end of the world.

In Titus 1 Paul again commands that bad doctrine be addressed vigorously.

In 1Tim 4 Paul predicts that in the last days the doctrinal error will consist of input from deceptive spirits and doctrines of demons.

Your approach is good in that you pick out specific doctrines to see if they are "a big deal" or "no big deal at all".

Certainly whether or not you wear a tie - or whether you keep Passover as a Christian-feast day speaking of Christ, or wear a head covering, or only read the KJV, or choose to be vegetarian, or attend a fully integrated church, or listen to country Gospel music... are all cultural decisions. Let each one be fully convinced in his own mind.

BUT IF you decide to ignore Peter in 1Peter 3 where Peter says that Baptism is in fact "AN APPEAL to God for a clean conscience" so that INSTEAD of that - you opt for infant baptism... Then that "Does matter" - it negates the benefit of baptism.

IF you decide that man-can-make-up-Purgatory as a doctrine and "That is ok" - then the whole issue of venial sins and indulgences and a host of evils comes in like a flood along with the "Church" having a spiritual "bank" of "excess suffering" to be applied and dished out in the form of indulgences for the dead. (Error is never-ending it seems).

This is all the stuff over which the saints died in the dark ages.

It matters in my opinion.

In Christ,

Bob

 

CubeX, I agree there are some issues that not worthy of debate. I don't usually get into endtime issues, calvinism/arminianism, church structure, and other topics like that.

However, doctrinal issues essential to the faith are worthy of debate and defense. We are told to "defend the faith" in Jude, and 1 and 2 Timothy several times tell us to hold to sound doctrine. We are told in Gal. 1.8 to reject "another gospel." Jesus warned of false teachers and so did Paul. Paul preached against the false teachers in Galatians. False teachers are refuted in 1 and 2 John.

Therefore, it is biblical to defend the faith when false doctrines come up here or anywhere else. There are a lot of false teachings around, both outside and inside the church. Some people will always debate the other issues that you may not think are important - you can't talk them out of it and trying to do so is a waste of time.

 

CubeX, you are saying, I think, the same thing I have been trying to say.

Rest assured, no one will listen. But thank you for saying it.

 

It's spread all through several threads. "Pentecostal Man's Glossolalia..." for one, especially the latter pages.

Have you read Brian McLaren's "A Generous Orthodoxy?" This book has helped me to better articulate the things I've been learning over the past few years.

 

Evolution and the age of the earth are completely irrelevant to salvation.

 

Someone should have told God that about HIS role as our God and Creator.

John completely goofed by establishing the role of Christ as the Creator in John 1:1-3 as the foundation truth for his gospel.

And oh what a mistake that angel of Rev 14 makes telling us to worship our creator in his EVERLASTING Gospel!

Never thought slicing and dicing scripture would be so easy.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Someone should have told God that about HIS role as our God and Creator.

John completely goofed by establishing the role of Christ as the Creator in John 1:1-3 as the foundation truth for his gospel.

And oh what a mistake that angel of Rev 14 makes telling us to worship our creator in his EVERLASTING Gospel!

Never thought slicing and dicing scripture would be so easy.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't see travelson's post as in any way disputing God's role in creation. He merely said that viewpoints which embrace a given worldview in re creation timelines and methodologies aren't the stuff by which Christ will judge us.

 

God has already told us His role. He Willed, He spoke, and it came to be.

How so?

Why do you think the angels are in error?

Don't kid yourself, you've been doing it for quite some time.

A man comes to saving faith through Jesus Christ by conviction of the Holy Spirit.

 

Evolution is wrong according to the NT authors.

In 1Tim 2 - Paul argues from the FACT of Creation - Adam created FIRST and Eve FIRST deceived.

In Romans 1 Paul argues from the FACT of Creation being directly from the hand of God so that EVEN the PAGANS see the hand of God (design and direct creation) in nature.

In the Gospels Christ argues in favor of the view that GOD established Marriage between one man - Adam and one woman - Eve.

In Mark 2 Christ argues for the MAKING of CREATION WEEK's SEVENTH day as a literal event MADE for mankind.

The LITERAL view of Creation is evident to the point of John 1 and Colossians 1 claiming that ALL that exists was made directly by God.

In Rev 14 we have the command to "WORSHIP HIM WHo MADE..." as key the "everlasting Gospel"...

The idea that "INSTEAD" of God we have "disease, starvation, carnage, death and extinction" MAKING all that we have -- is foreign to scripture AND the Gospel.

As for ATheist EVOlUTIONISTS who KNOW what Evolution is saying ... well..

Richard Dawkins is Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. He is the author of many books including the international best-sellers "The Selfish Gene", "The Blind Watchmaker", and "Climbing Mount Improbable."

FROM : http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/transcript/dawk-frame.html
Excerpt –

(Note for the Reader: In the above quote Dawkins argues that Christian evolutionist think “God does something”, that “God contributes something” to the subject of origins. And on that point alone – Dawkins argues for the inconsistency and flawed logic of so-called-christian-evolutionism.

Christian evolutionist sometimes argue against Dawkins claiming that HE has made too much of a grandiose claim about what Christian-evolutionists think God is doing.

How sad that Christian evolutionists are prone to going to such extremes.)

In Christ,

Bob

 

The New Testament authors did not address evolution.

Adam is the father and first representative of the human race.

Yes, creation does not lead men to the cross, but it is enough to make them accountable to God.

This has what to do with salvation and the remission of sins?

This has what to do with salvation and the remission of sins?

What Christian would deny this?

Keep stuffing that strawman.

Whose idea is this? Yours?


Address the issue at hand as a man of God who speaks from the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

What must a man do to be saved?