Christian judgement day - 1 Cor. 3:11-15

[Dr. Walter]

1 Cor. 3:11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Please consider that the "foundation" is not the "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble in the above texts.

Please consider that the "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble" is defined in verse 13 as "every man's work." The "gold, silver, precious stones" are works that can withstand the "fire" in verse 13 whereas the "wood, hay and stubble" are works that cannot withstand "fire" in verse 13. These are the things that make up a person's life of good or bad works or the same as the "house" built upon the foundations in Matthew 7:24-28.

Please consider that the "fire" in verse 13 is a figure of God's day of judgment.

Lastly, Paul first entertains the possibility of works that abide the fire of God's judgment and what the outcome would be in verse 14 and then he considers an entire life of wood, hay and stubble without any "gold, silver and precious stones" which is completely burned in verse 15. What is the eternal outcome?

14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

Note that the consequence of good works on the day of judgement in regard to CHRISTIANS is "a reward." This reward is not entrance into heaven as verse 15 in contrast defines the outcome of a Christian whose personal life of works are completely burned and found unfit and yet the only outcome is that "he shall suffer loss" of reward but "he himself shall be saved" due to the foundation which is the person and works of Christ, not his own works.

However, this is no light thing as he tells the same congregation in 2 Cor. 5:10-11.


CONCLUSION: This proves that our "works" do not gain or lose entrance into heaven or the lack therefore condemn us to hell. It proves that it is Christ's works imputed to us by faith is the "foundation" which cannot be moved and which secures entrance into heaven. However, it is no light thing to have all of ones works be burned or rejected by God as we do "suffer loss" just not loss of heaven.

OBJECTION #1: Some will object that this refers to the work of preachers building the church.

ANSWER: What is applicable to the preacher and his calling is applicable to every other Christian and their particular calling. Although the work of non-preacher Christians may be something else the same principle applies to them.

OBJECTION #2: Some will object that "gold, silver and precious stones" refers to adding true beleivers to church membership rather than their own personal good or bad works.

ANSWER: The text defines these things as "works" not "people" as the preacher cannot be accountable for knowing the hearts of men whether they are true or false professors.

OBJECTION #3: Some will object that "gold, silver and precious stones" refers to true doctrines versus false doctrines and not to their personal good or bad works.

ANSWER: The text says "works" not "doctrine."

CONCLUSION: Jesus confirms this Pauline teaching in Matthew 5:19 where those already "in" the kingdom heaven who have bad works are not cast out of the kingdom of heaven but are rewarded according to their works - good or bad in respect to "least" versus "greatest" rather than heaven versus hell.

Jesus further confirms this Pauline teaching in Matthew 7:21-28 where the only difference between true and false professors is their professed FOUNDATION they build their house upon. The profession of false believers is their MIXTURE of "Lord, Lord" with "have we not done many wonderful works" as their basis to enter heaven which Christ rejects as the foundation that endures judgement. He does not deny their HOUSE of good works but the house of GOOD WORKS stands or falls NOT on the basis of good works predominate bad works but upon the kind of "foundation" that house is built upon. The right foundation endures the judgement regardless of what goes into building the house.

The truth is that the life of Christ is the only life that can stand the judgement of God's law and no other life can. This is why God can accept FAULTLY imperfect lives of Christian because of THE FOUNDATION they are built upon rather than how they are built.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Every single person on this forum who beleives they are justified by their own works as the definitive basis for entrance into heaven or rejection in to hell believe they are either as good as Jesus or must be as good as Jesus to enter heaven.

Why do I say that? Because they come before God exactly as the rich young ruler came before Christ with the very same attitude of justification by works:

Mt. 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Notice the term "good" used four times in the text above. It represents the Greek term "agathos" and means "intrinsic goodness."

The rich young ruler perceives himself just as "good" as Christ. He acknowledges that Christ is "good" and then presents himself on a equal level believing he can produce from himself that which is equally "good" when he asks "what GOOD thing shall I do, that I may obtain eternal life?"

You want to know why Jesus ignored his question and simply zeroed in on how he conceived Jesus as "good"? "Why callest thou me good?" Because Jesus knew he perceived Jesus only as "good" as he perceived himself and thus AS GOOD AS JESUS. This is exactly how every advocate for justification by works on this forum perceive themselves. They perceive themselves as good as Jesus because they actually believe they can satisfy the law of God EQUALLY as good as Jesus did. They actually believe the Law can look upon their own lives and based upon their "good works" the Law will justify them as equally as it justified the personal works of Christ as GOOD ENOUGH for eternal life. Indeed they thing they are BETTER than Christ because they reject that Christ's life was suffiently GOOD ENOUGH to gain them entrance into heaven alone but their own "good" works must be ADDED to His life in order to be SUFFICIENTLY GOOD ENOUGH to pass the judgement of God's law for eternal life!

These are the kind of hypocrits that Paul confronted in Acts 15 and Galatians 1-4 and why he said that Christ is no use to them and that their gospel is a rejection of Jesus Christ and that they have fallen from the gospel of grace doctrinally.

They are just like this rich young ruler who not only thought he was capable of doing "GOOD" ENOUGH to obtain eternal life but actually believe He could keep all the commandments of God just as the advocates of justification by works on this forum do:

Mt. 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Like this young man, the advocates for justification by works on this forum actually are declaring themsevles to be as GOOD AS GOD or perfect as only a perfect sinless man is able to keep all the law (James 2:10; Gal. 3:10-11). Hence, this is exactly how Christ presented his self-perception when he went on to say:

"If thou will be PERFECT" - v. 21

He then turned the first and second tables of the Ten commandments into practical applicaton to shen this man he was not "perfect" and could not keep the law sufficiently to obtain eternal life. He told him to go sell all that he had and come follow him - FIRST FIVE COMMANDENTS and give all the proceeds of his sale to the poor - SECOND FIVE COMMANDMENTS or to say it in another way love the Lord thy God with ALL - 100% of your being 100% of the time and your neighbor equally.

Salvation is impossible for such men rich in SELF-PERCEPTION! This is the self-perception of every advocate of justification by works on this forum or else they would not claim the very same doctrine as this rich young ruler.

This is the very same perception of those in Matthew 7:21-23- "Lord, Lord.....have we not done"

1 Cor. 3:11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Please consider that the "foundation" is not the "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble in the above texts.

Please consider that the "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble" is defined in verse 13 as "every man's work." The "gold, silver, precious stones" are works that can withstand the "fire" in verse 13 whereas the "wood, hay and stubble" are works that cannot withstand "fire" in verse 13. These are the things that make up a person's life of good or bad works or the same as the "house" built upon the foundations in Matthew 7:24-28.

Please consider that the "fire" in verse 13 is a figure of God's day of judgment.

Lastly, Paul first entertains the possibility of works that abide the fire of God's judgment and what the outcome would be in verse 14 and then he considers an entire life of wood, hay and stubble without any "gold, silver and precious stones" which is completely burned in verse 15. What is the eternal outcome?

14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

Note that the consequence of good works on the day of judgement in regard to CHRISTIANS is "a reward." This reward is not entrance into heaven as verse 15 in contrast defines the outcome of a Christian whose personal life of works are completely burned and found unfit and yet the only outcome is that "he shall suffer loss" of reward but "he himself shall be saved" due to the foundation which is the person and works of Christ, not his own works.

However, this is no light thing as he tells the same congregation in 2 Cor. 5:10-11.


CONCLUSION: This proves that our "works" do not gain or lose entrance into heaven or the lack therefore condemn us to hell. It proves that it is Christ's works imputed to us by faith is the "foundation" which cannot be moved and which secures entrance into heaven. However, it is no light thing to have all of ones works be burned or rejected by God as we do "suffer loss" just not loss of heaven.

OBJECTION #1: Some will object that this refers to the work of preachers building the church.

ANSWER: What is applicable to the preacher and his calling is applicable to every other Christian and their particular calling. Although the work of non-preacher Christians may be something else the same principle applies to them.

OBJECTION #2: Some will object that "gold, silver and precious stones" refers to adding true beleivers to church membership rather than their own personal good or bad works.

ANSWER: The text defines these things as "works" not "people" as the preacher cannot be accountable for knowing the hearts of men whether they are true or false professors.

OBJECTION #3: Some will object that "gold, silver and precious stones" refers to true doctrines versus false doctrines and not to their personal good or bad works.

ANSWER: The text says "works" not "doctrine."

CONCLUSION: Jesus confirms this Pauline teaching in Matthew 5:19 where those already "in" the kingdom heaven who have bad works are not cast out of the kingdom of heaven but are rewarded according to their works - good or bad in respect to "least" versus "greatest" rather than heaven versus hell.

Jesus further confirms this Pauline teaching in Matthew 7:21-28 where the only difference between true and false professors is their professed FOUNDATION they build their house upon. The profession of false believers is their MIXTURE of "Lord, Lord" with "have we not done many wonderful works" as their basis to enter heaven which Christ rejects as the foundation that endures judgement. He does not deny their HOUSE of good works but the house of GOOD WORKS stands or falls NOT on the basis of good works predominate bad works but upon the kind of "foundation" that house is built upon. The right foundation endures the judgement regardless of what goes into building the house.

The truth is that the life of Christ is the only life that can stand the judgement of God's law and no other life can. This is why God can accept FAULTLY imperfect lives of Christian because of THE FOUNDATION they are built upon rather than how they are built.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 7 and Romans 2 parallel each other. Those who are shown to be "Doers" and not merely "sayers" or "hearers" are justified in the future judgment of Rom 2:13-16.

Thus the future judgment results in "Judgement passed in favor of the saints" as we see in Dan 7:22.

But it is on the real Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them" basis that Christ explains for us in the Gospels.

So again in Matt 25 we find

31 ""But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 ""All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 ""Then the King will say to those on His right, "Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 "For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37 ""Then the righteous will answer Him, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38 "And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 "When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "" The King will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41 ""Then He will also say to those on His left, " Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire (everlasting fire KJV) which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 ""Then they themselves also will answer, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 ""Then He will answer them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 ""These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

2Cor 5:10 makes the point -- "we MUST ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ".

so also Rom 2:13-16 "On the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of ALL mankind"

Dan 7:9-10 tells us that this future judgmnet includes actions written down in books "the court sat and the books were opened".

And so in Rev 14:6-7 "Everlasting gospel to preach to the whole world -- saying 'Fear God and give Him glory for the hour of His judgment has come"

this is the event that takes place at the "Cleansing of the Sanctuary" in heaven mentioned in Dan 8:14 - at then end of the 2300 year timeline starting in the Persian Empire.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Thus the future judgment results in "Judgement passed in favor of the saints" as we see in Dan 7:22.

Dan. 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:22 has nothing to do with "passing" the judgement but rather the saints are put in the position to judge others. Judgement "was given to the saints" when they take possession of the kingdom. Paul says the same thing:

1 Cor. 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

 

[Dr. Walter]

2Cor 5:10 makes the point -- "we MUST ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ".

so also Rom 2:13-16 "On the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of ALL mankind"

Dan 7:9-10 tells us that this future judgmnet includes actions written down in books "the court sat and the books were opened".

And so in Rev 14:6-7 "Everlasting gospel to preach to the whole world -- saying 'Fear God and give Him glory for the hour of His judgment has come"

this is the event that takes place at the "Cleansing of the Sanctuary" in heaven mentioned in Dan 8:14 - at then end of the 2300 year timeline starting in the Persian Empire.

in Christ,

Bob

There is no point in discussing these topics with you any more because you simply show no attempt to be objective and honest with the text but just repeat the texts over and over agains as though they supported your heresies.

 

[Andre]

1 Cor. 3:11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Please consider that the "foundation" is not the "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble in the above texts.

Please consider that the "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble" is defined in verse 13 as "every man's work." The "gold, silver, precious stones" are works that can withstand the "fire" in verse 13 whereas the "wood, hay and stubble" are works that cannot withstand "fire" in verse 13. These are the things that make up a person's life of good or bad works or the same as the "house" built upon the foundations in Matthew 7:24-28.

Please consider that the "fire" in verse 13 is a figure of God's day of judgment.

Lastly, Paul first entertains the possibility of works that abide the fire of God's judgment and what the outcome would be in verse 14 and then he considers an entire life of wood, hay and stubble without any "gold, silver and precious stones" which is completely burned in verse 15. What is the eternal outcome?

14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire

Note that the consequence of good works on the day of judgement in regard to CHRISTIANS is "a reward." This reward is not entrance into heaven as verse 15 in contrast defines the outcome of a Christian whose personal life of works are completely burned and found unfit and yet the only outcome is that "he shall suffer loss" of reward but "he himself shall be saved" due to the foundation which is the person and works of Christ, not his own works.

No.

People will often use material in 1 Corinthians 13 to support the argument that there will be a “rewards” judgement – based on works – at which eternal life itself is not at stake. However, the text in question is specifically directed at church leaders and teachers. It is telling them that they will not lose their salvation if they bungle their responsibilities to build the church. But this hardly means that that they will not be judged according to good works and receive eternal life on that basis.
Here is the text, set in context:

For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

In verse 9, Paul clearly sets the "we" who are leaders against the "you" who are the members of the church. The argument goes on to say something about the "we" - the leaders. Paul has identified himself and Apollos as the "we" here. The "we" are not, repeat not, all believers. And, of course, the text goes to say something about this "we" - that if they do not build in the right manner, this "we" will still be saved.

This text nowhere addresses any person, in specific relation to the concluding statement about salvation, who is not charged with church leadership, or any task that is not a church leadership task.

The text is what it is - to generalize what Paul is saying is not proper exegesis. Paul is addressing a very specific issue – the responsibilities of church leaders and how they will not lose their salvation if they fail at those specific responsibilities. He is not making a general theological statement – that is something people “read in”.

 

[Dr. Walter]

In my post I answered this rediculous objection. Preachers and teachers have their calling and will be judged accordingly but the same prinicples apply to every other Christian and their callings.

This absurd objection proposes the idea that there is special judgment of preachers and teachers according to their "works" different from other Christians according to their "works."

The gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble is explicitly identified as "works."

No.

People will often use material in 1 Corinthians 13 to support the argument that there will be a “rewards” judgement – based on works – at which eternal life itself is not at stake. However, the text in question is specifically directed at church leaders and teachers. It is telling them that they will not lose their salvation if they bungle their responsibilities to build the church. But this hardly means that that they will not be judged according to good works and receive eternal life on that basis.
Here is the text, set in context:

For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

In verse 9, Paul clearly sets the "we" who are leaders against the "you" who are the members of the church. The argument goes on to say something about the "we" - the leaders. Paul has identified himself and Apollos as the "we" here. The "we" are not, repeat not, all believers. And, of course, the text goes to say something about this "we" - that if they do not build in the right manner, this "we" will still be saved.

This text nowhere addresses any person, in specific relation to the concluding statement about salvation, who is not charged with church leadership, or any task that is not a church leadership task.

The text is what it is - to generalize what Paul is saying is not proper exegesis. Paul is addressing a very specific issue – the responsibilities of church leaders and how they will not lose their salvation if they fail at those specific responsibilities. He is not making a general theological statement – that is something people “read in”.

 

[BobRyan]

No.

People will often use material in 1 Corinthians 13 (3??) to support the argument that there will be a “rewards” judgement – based on works – at which eternal life itself is not at stake. However, the text in question is specifically directed at church leaders and teachers. It is telling them that they will not lose their salvation if they bungle their responsibilities to build the church. But this hardly means that that they will not be judged according to good works and receive eternal life on that basis.
Here is the text, set in context:

.

That is true.

Dan 7:
9 ""I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 ""A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened.
…
19 ""Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.
21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.


James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty



2 Cor 5
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according towhat he has done, whether good or bad.



Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7 and he said with a loud voice, "" Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 7:22 has nothing to do with "passing" the judgement but rather the saints are put in the position to judge others.

Wrong.

Dan 7
21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

2 Cor 5
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according towhat he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Wrong.

But you were totally unable to overturn 1 Cor. 6:2 especially in relationship with the context of Daniel 7:21. They are called "saints" in Daniel 7:21 and they were overpowered by "that horn" and the next verse (v. 23) the judgement is set and the books were open and you take the absolute complete foolish interpretation that those who are called "saints" and who were overcome by the power of the little horn are the subjects of this judgment which results in the little horn losing his kingdom and the "saints" taking possession of the kingdom?

Your interpretation is laughable!!!:laugh:

No, the judgement was set to condemn the little horn and those who followed him for killing the saints. It is the saints who sit in judgement with the Lamb of God that judge those who judged them on earth just as 1 Cor. 6:2 says.

No, Romans 2 is the judgement of the same kind of people - not the saints!

However, it is useless to talk to a spiritually blind man. You will simply parrot what the SDA has told you.

Dan 7
21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

2 Cor 5
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according towhat he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


in Christ,

Bob[/QUOTE]

 

[Dr. Walter]

But you were totally unable to overturn 1 Cor. 6:2 especially in relationship with the context of Daniel 7:21. They are called "saints" in Daniel 7:21 and they were overpowered by "that horn" and the next verse (v. 23) the judgement is set and the books were open and you take the absolute complete foolish interpretation that those who are called "saints" and who were overcome by the power of the little horn are the subjects of this judgment which results in the little horn losing his kingdom and the "saints" taking possession of the kingdom?

Your interpretation is laughable!!!:laugh:

No, the judgement was set to condemn the little horn and those who followed him for killing the saints. It is the saints who sit in judgement with the Lamb of God that judge those who judged them on earth just as 1 Cor. 6:2 says.

No, Romans 2 is the judgement of the same kind of people - not the saints!

The Text of this aspect of the Vision:

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.



The Text of the Explanation of that aspect of the Vision:

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.



Chronological order of vision and explanation of vision:


11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake:.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.



11..... I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. .

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.



13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

I Cor. 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?




Anyone can follow the chronological vision and explanation and easily see that it is not the "saints" being judged but it is the little horn and his kingdom (followers) that are being Judged by Christ and His saints.

 

[BobRyan]

But you were totally unable to overturn 1 Cor. 6:2 especially in relationship with the context of Daniel 7:21. They are called "saints" in Daniel 7:21 and they were overpowered by "that horn" and the next verse (v. 23) the judgement is set and the books were open and you take the absolute complete foolish interpretation that those who are called "saints" and who were overcome by the power of the little horn are the subjects of this judgment

Dan 7:22 says that "Judgment is passed in FAVOR of the saints".

That is where your idea ends.

Hint 1Cor 6:2 happens for the saints during the Millennium.

The Dan 7:10 and 7:22 judgment takes place prior to the 2nd coming as stated in the chapter and in Dan 2.

Walter said

No, the judgement was set to condemn the little horn and those who followed him for killing the saints.

There is the "either-or-hatchet" being taken to scripture again. In Dan 7 the judgment accomplishes BOTH goals. It condemns the little horn AND it vindicates the saints by passing in their favor.

Walter said -

It is the saints who sit in judgement with the Lamb of God that judge those who judged them on earth just as 1 Cor. 6:2 says.

1Cor 6:2 happens for the saints during the Millennium.

The Dan 7:10 and 7:22 judgment takes place prior to the 2nd coming as stated in the chapter and in Dan 2.

Dan 7
21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

2 Cor 5
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according towhat he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

 

[Dr. Walter]

[/SIZE]

Dan 7:22 says that "Judgment is passed in FAVOR of the saints".

That is where your idea ends.

Hint 1Cor 6:2 happens for the saints during the Millennium.

The Dan 7:10 and 7:22 judgment takes place prior to the 2nd coming as stated in the chapter and in Dan 2.



There is the "either-or-hatchet" being taken to scripture again. In Dan 7 the judgment accomplishes BOTH goals. It condemns the little horn AND it vindicates the saints by passing in their favor.




1Cor 6:2 happens for the saints during the Millennium.

The Dan 7:10 and 7:22 judgment takes place prior to the 2nd coming as stated in the chapter and in Dan 2.

Dan 7
21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

2 Cor 5
9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according towhat he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

If ignorance is bliss you are most bliss. No point in continuing this conversation as it is a waste of my time.

 

[Andre]

Preachers and teachers have their calling and will be judged accordingly but the same prinicples apply to every other Christian and their callings.

This is simply incorrect reasoning. You are basically asserting without argument, that what Paul says about a specific class of individuals generalizes. Where is you argument. Imagine if I warn a bunch of employees of company X that they will be fired if they do not improve their performance. One cannot simply "declare" that all employees everywhere are being admonished in the same way.

The text is what it is - a warning to church leaders. You may want to have it apply to all people, but Paul does not give you that opening.

This absurd objection proposes the idea that there is special judgment of preachers and teachers according to their "works" different from other Christians according to their "works."

The gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble is explicitly identified as "works."

Faulty reasoning. You assume, without actual argument, that Paul is speaking generally and then create a stawman by suggesting that I am saying that there are 2 different kinds of final judgements. I never said anything of the sort.

The text says what it says - church leaders will be judged for their leadership. If they screw up, they will not lose their final salvation on that basis. This in no way denies that they, like the rest of us, will face the Romans 2 judgement with good works determining final salvation.

Please stop with the insulting language, when you have no actual case (and even if you did, please stop it)

 

[Dr. Walter]

This is simply incorrect reasoning. You are basically asserting without argument, that what Paul says about a specific class of individuals generalizes. Where is you argument. Imagine if I warn a bunch of employees of company X that they will be fired if they do not improve their performance. One cannot simply "declare" that all employees everywhere are being admonished in the same way.

The text defines the materials (gold, siliver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble) as "WORKS" not people. The first grouping are "works" that withstand judgement while the last three do not stand judgment. Their works that withstand judgement obtain "a reward" but neither the judgement or their works determine salvation or entrance into heaven.


It it faulty and foolish and a straw man tactic to demand that GENERAL PRINCIPLES applied to a specific audiance are restricted to that specific audiance.

Judgement day is not restricted to church leaders. Good and bad works are not restricted to church leaders. Rewards and loss of rewards for approved or disapprove works is not restricted to church leaders. Hence, the absolute denial by Paul that disapproved works determine ones salvation cannot be restricted to church leaders! Your false doctrine is damaged and that is the only reason you wiggle and squeal and yell - foul! Your objection has no legitimate hermenuetical basis at all.

Let the reader decide who is building the straw man and taking a foolish position!

 

[Dr. Walter]

This is simply incorrect reasoning. You are basically asserting without argument, that what Paul says about a specific class of individuals generalizes. Where is you argument. Imagine if I warn a bunch of employees of company X that they will be fired if they do not improve their performance. One cannot simply "declare" that all employees everywhere are being admonished in the same way.

The text is what it is - a warning to church leaders. You may want to have it apply to all people, but Paul does not give you that opening.


Faulty reasoning. You assume, without actual argument, that Paul is speaking generally and then create a stawman by suggesting that I am saying that there are 2 different kinds of final judgements. I never said anything of the sort.

The text says what it says - church leaders will be judged for their leadership. If they screw up, they will not lose their final salvation on that basis. This in no way denies that they, like the rest of us, will face the Romans 2 judgement with good works determining final salvation.

Please stop with the insulting language, when you have no actual case (and even if you did, please stop it)

1. Does the Bible restrict "works" only to church leaders or is it a GENERAL truth concerning all saints? Yes or No!

2. Does the Bible restrict "works" that will be judged good or bad to church leaders or is it a GENERAL truth applicable to all saints? Yes or No?

3. Does the Bible restirct rewards for good works and loss of reward for bad works to church leaders only or is it a GENERAL principle applicable to all saints? Yes or no?

4. Do epistles specfically addressed to a specific congregation limit all of its contents to that specific congregation and no other congregation and no christian outside that congregation or do such episltes contain GENERAL truths applicable to all congregtions and Christians? Yes or No!


LET THE READER DECIDE WHO IS BUILDING A STRAW MAN AND TAKING A FOOLISH POSITION?

 

[BobRyan]

2Cor 5:10 makes the point -- "we MUST ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ".

so also Rom 2:13-16 "On the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge the secrets of ALL mankind"

Dan 7:9-10 tells us that this future judgmnet includes actions written down in books "the court sat and the books were opened".

And so in Rev 14:6-7 "Everlasting gospel to preach to the whole world -- saying 'Fear God and give Him glory for the hour of His judgment has come"

this is the event that takes place at the "Cleansing of the Sanctuary" in heaven mentioned in Dan 8:14 - at then end of the 2300 year timeline starting in the Persian Empire

================

By contrast to that future - end time judgment language that we see above - we have this in 1Cor 3.

4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.

6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
11 For no man can lay a foundation (PETRA) other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Now while some may "suppose" that the 1Cor 3 text is talking about a future purgatory for Bible teachers such as Paul and Apollos - it is not!

It is talking about the testing of doctrine and the purging away of false doctrine in THIS life. It is utter nonsense to "imagine" that the future judgment of Christ is to purge away false doctrine in heaven!!

Paul says that Bible teachers such as Appollos and himself - are building up doctrine with various kinds of material.

Paul says the doctrinal foundation is to be Christ -- not Peter.

Paul states that should a Bible teacher or evangelist (master builder) build with some inferior teaching (hence "I am of Appollos" vs "I am of Paul") - that God would take care of purging out the false or inferior ideas.

A good example of that is what you find in Acts 15 vs 1Cor 8 regarding meats offerred to idols.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

================

By contrast to that future - end time judgment language that we see above - we have this in 1Cor 3.

4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.

6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.
11 For no man can lay a foundation (PETRA) other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Now while some may "suppose" that the 1Cor 3 text is talking about a future purgatory for Bible teachers such as Paul and Apollos - it is not!

It is talking about the testing of doctrine and the purging away of false doctrine in THIS life. It is utter nonsense to "imagine" that the future judgment of Christ is to purge away false doctrine in heaven!!

Paul says that Bible teachers such as Appollos and himself - are building up doctrine with various kinds of material.

Paul says the doctrinal foundation is to be Christ -- not Peter.

Paul states that should a Bible teacher or evangelist (master builder) build with some inferior teaching (hence "I am of Appollos" vs "I am of Paul") - that God would take care of purging out the false or inferior ideas.

A good example of that is what you find in Acts 15 vs 1Cor 8 regarding meats offerred to idols.

in Christ,

Bob

What utter nonsense! You talk about blinders! This takes the cake. The two major classifications of materials are not identified as "doctrine" as Bob imagines but are explicitly defined as "works":

Every man’s work shall be made manifest:

If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned,

Of course false teachers do not care what the Word of God actually says but rather what they want to make it say! It says "works" it does not say "doctrine" but Bob does not care what it says and that should be obvious after his Daniel 8 fiasco!

Second, the preceding context is talking about the works of the ministry. Paul's work was "planting" churches whereas others "watered" what Paul planted. Both describe their "works" according to their calling. If they were faithful in discharging the "work" given them they would receive a reward in the day of judgement.

Third, Paul is talking about "THE judgement" as God does not dispense rewards here and now. Works are not "revealed" here and now as to what character they are but they are only "revealed" at the day of judgement:

13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Paul makes it clear that "the day" refers to the future judgement when every man's work is revealed for what it is in just a few verses later:

1 ¶ Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Bob does not care about the context or what the Word of God actually says and that should be obvous when you read his responses concerning Daniel 8. He has a seared conscience when it comes to God's Word. He twists it and denies it and perverts it any way he chooses without any regard to God's Word.

 

[Dr. Walter]

What utter nonsense! You talk about blinders! This takes the cake. The two major classifications of materials are not identified as "doctrine" as Bob imagines but are explicitly defined as "works":

Every man’s work shall be made manifest:

If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned,

Of course false teachers do not care what the Word of God actually says but rather what they want to make it say! It says "works" it does not say "doctrine" but Bob does not care what it says and that should be obvious after his Daniel 8 fiasco!

Second, the preceding context is talking about the works of the ministry. Paul's work was "planting" churches whereas others "watered" what Paul planted. Both describe their "works" according to their calling. If they were faithful in discharging the "work" given them they would receive a reward in the day of judgement.

Third, Paul is talking about "THE judgement" as God does not dispense rewards here and now. Works are not "revealed" here and now as to what character they are but they are only "revealed" at the day of judgement:

13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Paul makes it clear that "the day" refers to the future judgement when every man's work is revealed for what it is in just a few verses later:

1 ¶ Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Bob does not care about the context or what the Word of God actually says and that should be obvous when you read his responses concerning Daniel 8. He has a seared conscience when it comes to God's Word. He twists it and denies it and perverts it any way he chooses without any regard to God's Word.

1. Does the Bible restrict "works" only to church leaders or is it a GENERAL truth concerning all saints? Yes or No!

2. Does the Bible restrict "works" that will be judged good or bad to church leaders or is it a GENERAL truth applicable to all saints? Yes or No?

3. Does the Bible restrict rewards for good works and loss of reward for bad works to church leaders only or is it a GENERAL principle applicable to all saints? Yes or no?

4. Do epistles specfically addressed to a specific congregation limit all of its contents to that specific congregation and no other congregation and no christian outside that congregation or do such episltes contain GENERAL truths applicable to all congregtions and Christians? Yes or No!

5. The immediate preceding context of 1 Cor. 3:11-15 is describing the "work" of the ministry and the immediate proceeding context defines the precise time when the works of the ministry will be judged and it is not now but when Christ comes (See 1 Cor. 4:1-6).


LET THE READER DECIDE WHO IS BUILDING A STRAW MAN AND TAKING A FOOLISH POSITION?