Christians and alcohol

[FriendofSpurgeon]

In other words, you are saying that Christians should use judgment in such matters??? What a novel concept. Don't know why that is so hard for others to get.

Regarding poor Tim & his troubles, the most recent studies show that a glass of wine (or two) each day is actually good for your health.

I would agree with mman (may be the 1st time ever) that if it has an appearance of evil to him, then he should avoid. My experience is that this is more geographically based than anything. It is really a non-issue where I live.

 

[hillclimber1]

Good, because spending time with you would be painful.

Oh that hurt, and just when I was filling out my will and was thinkin of you. I need a drink.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Since God does not give us an exact number of drinks or even a blood alcohol percentage then we really need to base it on when a person becomes impaired as he does make it quite clear that impairment is a no no.
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Very well. If God says impairment is a no no...

According to Connecticut Clearinghouse impairment begins with one drink.

According to Medicenet impairment begins after one drink.

According to the Greater Dallas Council on Alcohol and Drug Abuse:

"Even at low doses, alcohol significantly impairs the judgment and coordination required to drive a car or operate machinery safely. Low to moderate doses of alcohol can also increase the incidence of a variety of aggressive acts, including domestic violence and child abuse."​

Their chart suggests that an individual is "possibly" impaired after one drink.

According to the RSA:

"The first impact of alcohol on the brain is that it begins to close down mental activity."

According to the NHTSA:

"Though small amounts of alcohol affect one’s brain and the ability to drive, people often swear they are “fine” after several drinks – but in fact, the failure to recognize alcohol impairment is often a symptom of impairment."

In April 2000, Professor H. Moskowitz 7 and Dary Fiorentino, published a review of
112 scientific studies into the Effects of Low Doses of Alcohol on Driving Related
Skills.8 The findings are shown in Chart A – “Impairment and Blood Alcohol
Concentration”. Their study reveals that at under 1/8 of our legal limit (the limit is 80 milligrams of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood) both basic Driving Skills and Divided Attention ability were found to be impaired in half or more of the behavioural tests. The ability to divide attention between different sources of information on the road is acrucial requirement of safe driving – and this ability starts to be impaired at the lowest doses of alcohol."​

According to the above sources when a person takes their first alcoholic drink they are at a minimum "possibly" impaired and are more than likely impaired to some degree.

The blood alcohol content levels that we are familiar with are not a designation of an individual being first impaired but a designation of when a person is, by law, too impaired to safely drive. If God said impairment is a no no, then it would appear that a person is either possibly going against what God says or definitely going against what God says when that person takes his or her first drink.

 

[Helen]

Something puzzles me about responses such as Rufus' -- they use man's measurements and standards to define God's Word.

I do not read anywhere where the Bible says not to have one drink, or that feeling that drink a bit is a sin. The Bible says not to get drunk. Of course the first drink must be taken to get drunk. But the first bite must be taken in order to eat so much you throw up, too. But no one uses that argument to say you should not eat that first bite!

I have a glass (3-4 oz) of wine occasionally. I like Cabernet Sauvignon. If I have it with a meal I feel absolutely nothing.

I take Tylenol and Ibuprofen before bed because of arthritis pain, so I can sleep. They make be feel sleepy. I am definitely impaired at that point. Should I not take them because that gives the appearance of evil?

This whole alcohol thing has gone round so many corners here on BB that it could build its own complete board, if not city! For those of you who honestly feel any alcohol at all is evil, then for you that is it: it is evil. You are convinced in your own minds and thus you must follow your convictions.

Others of us do not find the Bible indicates that alcohol is evil at all and we honestly are convinced that Jesus drank wine and changed water into wine at Cana. Some of us have a bit to drink sometimes and others don't. It is a personal thing.

That should be it, but I'm too much of a realist to think it will be....:tonofbricks:

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

Others of us do not find the Bible indicates that alcohol is evil at all and we honestly are convinced that Jesus drank wine and changed water into wine at Cana. Some of us have a bit to drink sometimes and others don't. It is a personal thing.
That should be it, but I'm too much of a realist to think it will be....:tonofbricks:

Your last sentence will be proven correct. For many of us, the remainder of your post is valid, too! Thanks for putting our thoughts into your calming, practical words.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Something puzzles me about responses such as Rufus' -- they use man's measurements and standards to define God's Word.

Ms. Helen, I used God's Word earlier and it didn't take. I was responding to Chemnitz belief that God says not to be impaired and man's data demonstrates that impairment begins at one drink. Friendofspurgeon used man's studies to demonstrate that wine is allegedly good for you, will you be giving him a hard time or is that alright as it fits your bias?

I do not read anywhere where the Bible says not to have one drink, or that feeling that drink a bit is a sin. The Bible says not to get drunk. Of course the first drink must be taken to get drunk. But the first bite must be taken in order to eat so much you throw up, too. But no one uses that argument to say you should not eat that first bite!

The Bible says don't even look at the wine when it is red. How do you take a drink when you can't see it?

I have a glass (3-4 oz) of wine occasionally. I like Cabernet Sauvignon. If I have it with a meal I feel absolutely nothing.

"The failure to recognize alcohol impairment is often a symptom of impairment." Fermented wine is no more healthy than nonfermented and actually nonfermented wine is far better for you, why not have a tasty glass of Welch's Sauvignon?

I take Tylenol and Ibuprofen before bed because of arthritis pain, so I can sleep. They make be feel sleepy. I am definitely impaired at that point. Should I not take them because that gives the appearance of evil?

There are herbal remedies for arthritis that will not cause you to be impaired.

This whole alcohol thing has gone round so many corners here on BB that it could build its own complete board, if not city! For those of you who honestly feel any alcohol at all is evil, then for you that is it: it is evil. You are convinced in your own minds and thus you must follow your convictions.

Others of us do not find the Bible indicates that alcohol is evil at all and we honestly are convinced that Jesus drank wine and changed water into wine at Cana. Some of us have a bit to drink sometimes and others don't. It is a personal thing.

I'd say it's a Bible thing and a God thing and Jesus Christ does not and did not promote getting liquored up.

 

[av1611jim]

Golly, I like barbituates. They help me to relax after a long day. I only use one a day. Sometimes not even that. And sometimes, I pop a glass of juice with it so it will digest better and help me to sleep.
God never said one could not use medications. And since I don't abuse them then it should be nobody's business but my own. It is a personal thing. So, give me barbituates any day! I just like them. And nobody but me and God knows I use them.

 

[Claudia_T]

and if you are impaired after one drink how can you drink "responsibly"? Because how can you think straight after just one drink to be trusted not to keep on drinking till you're drunk?

I'd say the only safe course is leave it alone. How many people do you think have intended on only drinking one drink then after the first become impaired in judgment, then drank more only to end up killing someone else or themselves in a car accident?

 

[Dustin]

I don't know where you get your information from, but ordination of gay persons is prohibited by the PC(USA) Book of Order. We simply cannot do it.

Right but some do, the LIBBY PCUSA churches. I never said the denom. as a whole. They have libby PCA churches and libby Methodists and Baptists, and Episcopalions, and libby Catholic sects also. There's libby versions of all denominations, those were the ones I was talking about. There are many that do practice good doctrine.

Check this out:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_(USA)

 

[Chemnitz]

Helen, Rufus's response doesn't surprise me, nearly all of the people he cited have some stake in the movement for abstaining from alcohol. They are people who are going to agree with him. Nevermind the fact that God actually calls wine good and usefull, something modern medical science is discovering when it removes the veil that American anti-alcohol piety has been removed from its eyes.

Actually, Rufus, by your standards the herbal remedies do cause impairment as they generally contain mild forms of sedatives and other pain killers. Now if you include opium which is technically a herbal remedy then they cause sever impairment. And of course, all Christians should avoid turkey as it contains the sedative tryptophan and it may impair your judgement.

Claudia you may have to do something that is completely foriegn to people today, trust another person. I have been drinking for over 15 years, 18 if you include communion wine, and I have never been drunk.

 

[mman]

Appearance as they say is in the eye of the beholder. I say alcohol has the appearance of tastiness with a good meal. Besides you should not call evil that which God has called good, don't forget poor Timothy and his tummy troubles.

I think a case can be made indirectly from the references to drunkeness to be able to argue that God's standard is impairment. Several of the references bring up forgetfulness, a lust for more and wasting of resources, all of which are a mark of impaired judgement. A few drinks are not going to do it to people, there are a rare few exceptions but they are do to mitigating medical reasons. Most of the so called giddiness people feel after only a few drinks is a placibo effect brought on because they think they are feeling the alcohol. A similar jolt occurs for people with caffinated drinks, they experience an immediate rush but really it takes over an hour for caffiene to cause an effect. Please note I said a few because dosage does have an effect on how soon it enters the blood stream.

Since God does not give us an exact number of drinks or even a blood alcohol percentage then we really need to base it on when a person becomes impaired as he does make it quite clear that impairment is a no no.

I appreciate your well thought out responses.

As for Timothy, why do you suppose it took an inspired apostle to tell him to drink “a little” wine for medicinal purposes? If Paul were talking about unfermented wine, then there would not have been a quantity restriction. If drinking fermented wine was common for the early Christians, the exhortation would not have been needed.

“Be no longer a drinker of water [alone], but [with it] take a little wine . . .”

The problem with impairment, most are impaired when they don't think they are.

There are a few lists that include drunkenness.

I Cor 5:11 </SPAN>But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.

I Cor 6:9-10, Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

My goal is to stay as far away from everything on these lists as possible. I don’t want to give my brother an occasion to stumble. Am I perfect? Of course not. But not enjoying the pleasures of alcohol seems insignificant in light of my example/influence which could cause a brother to stumble and in the confidence that I am firmly planted on safe ground.

And while some may think otherwise, I do not judge those who drink in moderation. If a brother was a drunkard, however, I am required to judge that and not to associate or eat with him.

 

[Chemnitz]

I appreciate your well thought out responses.

As for Timothy, why do you suppose it took an inspired apostle to tell him to drink “a little” wine for medicinal purposes? If Paul were talking about unfermented wine, then there would not have been a quantity restriction. If drinking fermented wine was common for the early Christians, the exhortation would not have been needed.

“Be no longer a drinker of water [alone], but [with it] take a little wine . . .”

The problem with impairment, most are impaired when they don't think they are.

It is a dangerous assumption to believe that because Paul wrote take a little wine to assume that Christians did not regularly drink alcoholic beverages in the 1st century. The text really doesn't apply to that kind of a situation. I think the continued warnings against drunkness would suggest that they were drinking and some to excess.

Second there is a difference between not admitting impairment and not knowing they are impaired. Generally people can tell they are impaired because things aren't working right, they just don't want to admit it. A case in point was a friend of mine, when she turned 21 she went out drinking to celebrate, we stopped her when she started to try and prove she was sober. BTW I was none to thrilled about her doing this but I since I couldn't stop her the least I could do is go and make sure she didn't get hurt.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Right but some do, the LIBBY PCUSA churches. I never said the denom. as a whole. They have libby PCA churches and libby Methodists and Baptists, and Episcopalions, and libby Catholic sects also. There's libby versions of all denominations, those were the ones I was talking about. There are many that do practice good doctrine.

Check this out:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_(USA)

First, my friend, the term is not "LIBBY," but "Liberal."

If a church is part of the Presbyterian Church (USA), that church cannot ordain homosexuals.

Unless that church is in a state which allows gay marriages, a church cannot perform a gay marriage.

And I do not rely on Wikipedia for my theological insight, thank you very much. I would recommend speaking with someone who is in the PC(USA), such as myself, directly for your information on that denomination.

 

[mman]

It is a dangerous assumption to believe that because Paul wrote take a little wine to assume that Christians did not regularly drink alcoholic beverages in the 1st century. The text really doesn't apply to that kind of a situation. I think the continued warnings against drunkness would suggest that they were drinking and some to excess.

Second there is a difference between not admitting impairment and not knowing they are impaired. Generally people can tell they are impaired because things aren't working right, they just don't want to admit it. A case in point was a friend of mine, when she turned 21 she went out drinking to celebrate, we stopped her when she started to try and prove she was sober. BTW I was none to thrilled about her doing this but I since I couldn't stop her the least I could do is go and make sure she didn't get hurt.

It's not a "dangerous" assumption. In fact, it's the safest assumption.

Either 1) it's ok to drink in moderation or 2) it's a sin.

Either way, it is perfectly safe to refrain. So, the real "dangerous" position is to assume they did if they really didn't.

Do you have a theory as to why it took an inspired apostle to direct Timothy to have a little wine for medicinal purposes if drinking alcohol was common among christians?

I will have to take your word for it on people becoming impaired. From "experiments" that I've seen on TV or read about, most people have no idea as to what their blood alcohol level is even after only a few drinks. Some who don't think they are impaired are slightly to greatly impaired while others think they are impaired, yet are only slightly, when their motor skills, logic, and reaction times are measured.

 

[Lagardo]

And I do not rely on Wikipedia for my theological insight, thank you very much. I would recommend speaking with someone who is in the PC(USA), such as myself, directly for your information on that denomination.

If I can't believe an anonymous source on the internet, who can I believe? :BangHead:

 

[Chemnitz]

Do you have a theory as to why it took an inspired apostle to direct Timothy to have a little wine for medicinal purposes if drinking alcohol was common among christians?

Theorizing is actually quite fruitless as it can not be validated by means of scriptural support. That said the more likely reason is Timothy hadn't thought to use wine medicinally.

It's not a "dangerous" assumption. In fact, it's the safest assumption.

Either 1) it's ok to drink in moderation or 2) it's a sin.

Either way, it is perfectly safe to refrain. So, the real "dangerous" position is to assume they did if they really didn't.

So you advocate determining doctrine by means of the assumption? I do hope you jest, considering what assume truly means which I will not repeat here.

And I do not rely on Wikipedia for my theological insight, thank you very much. I would recommend speaking with someone who is in the PC(USA), such as myself, directly for your information on that denomination.

Wikipedia, what a laugh. :laugh:

 

[Claudia_T]

Claudia you may have to do something that is completely foriegn to people today, trust another person. I have been drinking for over 15 years, 18 if you include communion wine, and I have never been drunk.

Yeah but yer sitting there hitting your head against a brick wall though on your post. Maybe thats caused by an accumulation of alcohol over the years? and in the other picture your tongue is hanging out too.

Just kidding

 

[Chemnitz]

Yeah but yer sitting there hitting your head against a brick wall though on your post. Maybe thats caused by an accumulation of alcohol over the years? and in the other picture your tongue is hanging out too.

Just kidding

Not quite, just an expression of the array of emotions that the BB fills me with. :laugh: