"Christian's Don't Sin" part 2

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Noah shows us that a righteous person can commit terrible sins and still remain saved.

Let the reader carefully note that once again we see OSAS inserted as a presupposition, unfounded by the word of God. Amy here tries to tell us that Noah was in a right standing before God in his drunken stuper, which is nowhere substantiated in Scripture. Only as one approaches the story holding firmly the ‘presupposition’ that Noah was still in a right relationship with God in spite of anything or everything that he did or could possibly do, does one conclude that “a righteous person can commit terrible sins and still remain saved” as Amy here establishes with the help of the notion, not in any way established by Scripture, the unbiblical and unfounded presupposition of OSAS.

 

[DHK]

Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy here tries to tell us that Noah was in a right standing before God in his drunken stuper, which is nowhere substantiated in Scripture.

DHK posted a great verse. :thumbs:
Here is the scripture that says that Noah was righteous before the flood, before his drunken stupor.

Gen 7:1 THEN the LORD said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

How can you say this is not substantiated?

What evidence do you have that God did not declare Noah righteous?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

HP: I agree fully with that verse, but that does not substantiate the point made that he was in a right relationship with God as a saved individual when he was in his drunken stupor. He might have well been, not knowing what he understood concerning neither the drink he was drinking nor the evil effects of alcohol, innocent in his behavior. God alone knows all the facts. It is totally possible that he acted in complete ignorance, not understanding the deceitfulness of alcohol.

The point I am making is that Scripture in no wise proves that a “a righteous person can commit terrible sins and still remain saved” as Amy stated. He could have backslid, rejecting the faith he once had. Scripture does not indicate to my knowledge either possibility. One has to approach the passage from a presupposition of OSAS to see it as a proof text for such. I have confidence that regardless of his standing before God in that act, he repented and was right with God in the end.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

HP: Sure, but God had not yet came to the knowledge at that point that all any man’s righteousness was a filthy rags……… right? :tonofbricks:

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Sure, but God had not yet came to the knowledge at that point that all any man’s righteousness was a filthy rags……… right? :tonofbricks:

What???

 

[ajg1959]

HP: I agree fully with that verse, but that does not substantiate the point made that he was in a right relationship with God as a saved individual when he was in his drunken stupor. He might have well been, not knowing what he understood concerning neither the drink he was drinking nor the evil effects of alcohol, innocent in his behavior. God alone knows all the facts. It is totally possible that he acted in complete ignorance, not understanding the deceitfulness of alcohol.

The point I am making is that Scripture in no wise proves that a “a righteous person can commit terrible sins and still remain saved” as Amy stated. He could have backslid, rejecting the faith he once had. Scripture does not indicate to my knowledge either possibility. One has to approach the passage from a presupposition of OSAS to see it as a proof text for such. I have confidence that regardless of his standing before God in that act, he repented and was right with God in the end.

How many times can a saved person get lost and then saved again? What if a person that truely loves God has a bad day and dies that afternoon before he has a chance to ask for forgiveness? Does our eternity depend on timing? If we bounce back and forth between a saved and lost state then isnt it just a crap shoot as to which state we are in when we die?

AJ

 

[DHK]

Ezekiel 14:13-14 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 14:16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.

Ezekiel 14:19-20 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Apparently the Lord thought or declared that Noah was among the three most righteous men in the world. Do you still think he lost his salvation? I think not! A man declared righteous by God is not a lost person!!

 

[DHK]

HP: Sure, but God had not yet came to the knowledge at that point that all any man’s righteousness was a filthy rags……… right? :tonofbricks:

Are you claiming God to be ignorant?
Just a little blasphemy to go along with your posts??

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: What???

HP: You know I am kidding, or so I should at least hope so. I hear at every turn that ‘all man’s righteousness is as filthy rags, and here you quote a verse that shows that God honors and rewards righteous behavior. I was simply trying to get some to consider the truth concerning how God really views and rewards righteous behavior in a somewhat humorous fashion, in direct opposition to simply viewing it as merely and only as 'filthy rags' as some would in error believe.

 

[Amy.G]

How many times can a saved person get lost and then saved again? What if a person that truely loves God has a bad day and dies that afternoon before he has a chance to ask for forgiveness? Does our eternity depend on timing? If we bounce back and forth between a saved and lost state then isnt it just a crap shoot as to which state we are in when we die?

AJ

It's called yo yo salvation. :BangHead:

 

[ajg1959]

HP: I agree fully with that verse, but that does not substantiate the point made that he was in a right relationship with God as a saved individual when he was in his drunken stupor. He might have well been, not knowing what he understood concerning neither the drink he was drinking nor the evil effects of alcohol, innocent in his behavior. God alone knows all the facts. It is totally possible that he acted in complete ignorance, not understanding the deceitfulness of alcohol.

The point I am making is that Scripture in no wise proves that a “a righteous person can commit terrible sins and still remain saved” as Amy stated. He could have backslid, rejecting the faith he once had. Scripture does not indicate to my knowledge either possibility. One has to approach the passage from a presupposition of OSAS to see it as a proof text for such. I have confidence that regardless of his standing before God in that act, he repented and was right with God in the end.

Besides that, claiming that sin wil cause a person to lose their salvation is simply saying that our eternity is based on our actions, which amounts to salvation by works, and goes totally against the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace and grace alone.

AJ

 

[Amy.G]

HP: You know I am kidding, or so I should at least hope so. I hear at every turn that ‘all man’s righteousness is as filthy rags, and here you quote a verse that shows that God honors and rewards righteous behavior. I was simply trying to get some to consider the truth concerning how God really views and rewards righteous behavior in a somewhat humorous fashion, in direct opposition to simply viewing it as merely and only as 'filthy rags' as some would in error believe.

What makes a man righteous in God's eyes is his faith. Abraham was declared righteous because he "believed God".

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Just a little blasphemy to go along with your posts??

HP: You are an offense to reason DHK in that personal attack and completely false suggestion. That is completely and totally defrauding your brother of any semblance of a just interpretation of their words.

 

[DHK]

HP: You are an offense to reason DHK in that personal attack and completely false suggestion. That is completely and totally defrauding your brother of any semblance of a just interpretation of their words.

Don't attack me HP. I didn't take your post lightly when you accuse the Lord God Almighty as still learning and hence ignorant.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: What makes a man righteous in God's eyes is his faith. Abraham was declared righteous because he "believed God".

HP: Faith is indeed involved in any righteous act, but that does not negate the fact that faith is an act of the will. Noah did something that God deemed as righteous that many other men had obviously failed to do. God saw something in that man, in his voluntary intents of the heart as he trusted God by faith, that pleased God.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Faith is indeed involved in any righteous act, but that does not negate the fact that faith is an act of the will. Noah did something that God deemed as righteous that many other men had obviously failed to do. God saw something in that man, in his voluntary intents of the heart as he trusted God by faith, that pleased God.

Yes. Noah also believed God. When God told him to build an ark, he did not question it. He did it. Righteous "acts" are the results of faith. Just as James says. Faith results in good works. But without faith, it is impossible to please God.

Now please show us that Noah was not righteous.

 

[DHK]

Ezekiel 14:13-14 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 14:16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.

Ezekiel 14:19-20 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Apparently the Lord thought or declared that Noah was among the three most righteous men in the world. Do you still think he lost his salvation? I think not! A man declared righteous by God is not a lost person!!

I see this post goes unanswered, and indeed is unanswerable.
God has declared Noah as one of the three most righteous men in the world.
How could there be any suggestion at all that he was lost?
To suggest such would be ridiculous in the light of the above Scripture.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: It's called yo yo salvation.

HP: I have witnessed yo-yo salvation in my lifetime. It comes at the hands of false doctrines, doctrines that teach there is no condemnation if you have once believed, without the Scriptural notion that follows that promise, “IF” ye walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

Let me tell you how the yo-yo works. A person comes to the Lord and comes into a hope of eternal life. After some time they fall into sin and the inevitable condemnation that the Spirit sends their way. At first they try hard to deny that their heart is not right. Pressed by the Holy Spirit with convicting power, they know full well that they cannot stand before God with a pure heart. Now they are in a doctrinal pickle. If they confess they are not right with God they deny the OSAS they are sworn to, but they cannot deny the convicting power that warns them of impending doom if they are to stand before a Holy God, so here is their familiar testimony I have personally witnessed after having walked with the Lord at one time. “I just figured out today that I was never really saved, but today I am certain of my salvation.”

In reality, without denying the often litmus test of fellowship, i.e., OSAS, what else can they say given the climate of OSAS and the opposition to any testimony to the contrary??

So here we have the yo-yo salvation in vivid action that you speak of, developed as a direct product of the doctrine you profess eliminates such yo-yo activity. I say the dogma of OSAS is no assurance at all. I have seen it fail those that once held to it by their own testimonies, having held to OSAS before and then subsequently claiming to having never been saved. There is no security in OSAS, rather only the mirage of it.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: I have witnessed yo-yo salvation in my lifetime. It comes at the hands of false doctrines, doctrines that teach there is no condemnation if you have once believed, without the Scriptural notion that follows that promise, “IF” ye walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

Let me tell you how the yo-yo works. A person comes to the Lord and comes into a hope of eternal life. After some time they fall into sin and the inevitable condemnation that the Spirit sends their way. At first they try hard to deny that their heart is not right. Pressed by the Holy Spirit with convicting power, they know full well that they cannot stand before God with a pure heart. Now they are in a doctrinal pickle. If they confess they are not right with God they deny the OSAS they are sworn to, but they cannot deny the convicting power that warns them of impending doom if they are to stand before a Holy God, so here is their familiar testimony I have personally witnessed after having walked with the Lord at one time. “I just figured out today that I was never really saved, but today I am certain of my salvation.”

In reality, without denying the often litmus test of fellowship, i.e., OSAS, what else can they say given the climate of OSAS and the opposition to any testimony to the contrary??

So here we have the yo-yo salvation in vivid action that you speak of, developed as a direct product of the doctrine you profess eliminates such yo-yo activity. I say the dogma of OSAS is no assurance at all. I have seen it fail those that once held to it by their own testimonies, having held to OSAS before and then subsequently claiming to having never been saved. There is no security in OSAS, rather only the mirage of it.

Maybe they weren't really saved. That is certainly a possibility. And only the person and God can know that.

You are either saved or not and you are only saved ONE time.

Now for those verses that say that Noah wasn't righteous. We're waaaiiiting.........