Christology

[ByGracethroughFaith]

I believe that the Father, the Son and the Spirit all part of the resurrection of Jesus. Does that put your soul at rest?

Sure, now help convince Eliyahu of this fact, before he gets finally hardened.

BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

2. In fact, outside of John's narrative, every reference to the resurrection of Christ points to the Father doing the raising, with the instrumentality of the Spirit in one instance (Rom 1:4).

Correct. Pneuma Hagiosune

 

[Eliyahu]

BGTF,

Would you say the followings as well should be believed, in order not to go to the Hell?

God the Father was crucified at the Cross.

God the Holy Spirit was crucified at the Cross.

Unbelieving the above statement is a heresy and will lead the Believers to go to the Hell.

Please confirm.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

BGTF,

Would you say the followings as well should be believed, in order not to go to the Hell?

God the Father was crucified at the Cross.

God the Holy Spirit was crucified at the Cross.

Unbelieving the above statement is a heresy and will lead the Believers to go to the Hell.

Please confirm.

What you have listed there is a form of the heresy of Patripassionism, and holding to that belief will be an evidence of a person going to hell.

It was only God the Son who was crucified on the cross.


BGTF

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

BGTF,

Would you say the followings as well should be believed, in order not to go to the Hell?

God the Father was crucified at the Cross.

God the Holy Spirit was crucified at the Cross.

Unbelieving the above statement is a heresy and will lead the Believers to go to the Hell.

Please confirm.

Now your turn.

In Genesis 17:1 which person of the Godhead did Abraham see, the Father or the Son?


BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

What you have listed there is a form of the heresy of Patripassionism, and holding to that belief will be an evidence of a person going to hell.

It was only God the Son who was crucified on the cross.


BGTF

Are you denying that the Holy Spirit was in Jesus Christ when He died at the Cross?

Are you denying this verse?

Ac 20
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Are you denying that the God the Father was in Jesus Christ at the time of Crucifixion?


Heb 5:
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Was Jesus heard by the Son of God according to your theology?

Why are you denying your own theology when it comes to Patripassionism?

 

[Eliyahu]

Now your turn.
In Genesis 17:1 which person of the Godhead did Abraham see, the Father or the Son?
BGTF

The original text of MT ( Masoretic Text) says " Jehovah ( Yehowah)".
Though there is some people of Modalism, I stay with God the Father.

You cannot say that is Son of God unless you claim Son of God was the Yehowah.

When you come to Jn 8:53-59, Jesus indicated Abraham saw His Days which means Abraham knew Jesus Himself. I believe it indicates Gen 18-19, and also 22:10, 15-17, where the Malack of Yehowah appeared. Gen 18 is the chapter where LORD appeared 2 other Malack ( not the Elohim for the angels). The Malack claimed He Himself is God ( Gen 31:11-13) and Jacob wrestled with a man and and confessed he saw God face to face but survived ( Gn 32:30) That man was the same Malack, I believe, which means Pre-enfleshment Jesus Christ. However, not directly Jehovah Himself was called Malack ( Special Envoy).

Therefore your claim that Gn 17:1 God was the Son of God is respectively rejected.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

The original text of MT ( Masoretic Text) says " Jehovah ( Yehowah)".
Though there is some people of Modalism, I stay with God the Father.

When you come to Jn 8:53-59, Jesus indicated Abraham saw His Days which means Abraham knew Jesus Himself. I believe it indicates Gen 18-19, and also 22:10, 15-17, where the Malack of Yehowah appeared. Gen 18 is the chapter where LORD appeared 2 other Malack ( not the Elohim for the angels). The Malack claimed He Himself is God ( Gen 31:11-13) and Jacob wrestled with a man and and confessed he saw God face to face but survived ( Gn 32:30) That man was the same Malack, I believe, which means Pre-enfleshment Jesus Christ. However, not directly Jehovah Himself was called Malack ( Special Envoy).

Jacob wrestled with God the Son, Abraham saw God the Son.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Col 1:13-15 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

You cannot say that is Son of God unless you claim Son of God was the Yehowah.

The most basic instruction in Christianity is that Jesus is Jehovah.
http://www.geocities.com/truedino/jesusis.htm
http://christianbeliefs.org/articles/jehovah.html

To deny that Jesus is Jehovah is an outright rejection of the person of Christ.

Therefore your claim that Gn 17:1 God was the Son of God is respectively rejected.

One more chance to reconsider it.....


BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

Jacob wrestled with God the Son, Abraham saw God the Son.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Col 1:13-15 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:



The most basic instruction in Christianity is that Jesus is Jehovah.
http://www.geocities.com/truedino/jesusis.htm
http://christianbeliefs.org/articles/jehovah.html

To deny that Jesus is Jehovah is an outright rejection of the person of Christ.


One more chance to reconsider it.....


BGTF

You are standing on the Modalism.

Read Exodus 23:20-23. Who is the angel ?

 

[TCGreek]

Jacob wrestled with God the Son, Abraham saw God the Son.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Col 1:13-15 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:



The most basic instruction in Christianity is that Jesus is Jehovah.
http://www.geocities.com/truedino/jesusis.htm
http://christianbeliefs.org/articles/jehovah.html

To deny that Jesus is Jehovah is an outright rejection of the person of Christ.


One more chance to reconsider it.....


BGTF

You are beside yourself.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

You are beside yourself.

Interesting comment, please enlarge.

BGTF

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

You are standing on the Modalism.

Read Exodus 23:20-23. Who is the angel ?

Just so you can keep it straight, if I was 'standing on modalism', I would not be proclaiming God the Son in the Old Testament, nor would I be proclaiming the operations of all three persons of the Trinity in the resurrection of Christ.

To answer your question, like most of those of old, I understand it to be the one given the title of "the Angel of the Covenant" or more specifically, Christ.

Ex 23:20-25
...according to the vast majority of ancient, as well as modern interpreters, it was He who brought the Israelites out of Egypt (Num 20:16), who preceded and accompanied that people in the wilderness by a symbolic cloud, and who appeared on their first entrance into Canaan (Josh 5:14). And hence, He is called (Ex 33:14-15) the "presence" or face of God (cf. Isa 63:9), and (Ex 23:18: cf. Ex 34:6) His "glory" - being no other than "the Angel of the Covenant" (Mal 3:1), the Messiah, the Christ (cf. John 1:14; 14:9; 1 Cor 10:4; Heb 1:3).
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary)

Who do you think it is?


BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

Just so you can keep it straight, if I was 'standing on modalism', I would not be proclaiming God the Son in the Old Testament, nor would I be proclaiming the operations of all three person of the Trinity in the resurrection of Christ.

Correct. But Jehovah=Jesus is one of the bases of the Modalism too.

To answer your question, like most of those of old, I understand it to be the one given the title of "the Angel of the Covenant" or more specifically, Christ.
Who do you think it is?
BGTF

Correct. Then how could you say that the Angel of Jehovah is the very person of Jehovah?

Or Read Isaiah 53:11
How come My righteous Servant is the same as Jehovah ?
Read Isaiah 53:10-12. Then do you think the person " I " and " He" are the same person?

It pleased Jehovah to bruise Him ( Jesus) ( 53:10)

Do you think the Bible is talking about One-Man-Show?

Where was the God the Father in OT if Jehovah was the Son of God?

 

[TCGreek]

Outside of 1 Cor 10:4, all references to the preincarnate Christ are speculative at best, despite what commentators venture.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Correct. But Jehovah=Jesus is one of the bases of the Modalism too.

Absolutely not, Jesus being Jehovah is one of the most basic tenets of the Christian faith. Jesus is God, God’s name is Jehovah, therefore Jesus is Jehovah.
http://www.bible-topics.com/Christ-is-God.html

Or Read Isaiah 53:11
How come My righteous Servant is the same as Jehovah ?
Read Isaiah 53:10-12. Then do you think the person " I " and " He" are the same person?

There is a better one than that even,
Matt 22:43-45 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

In this verse, ‘LORD’ is Jehovah, ‘Lord’ is Christ, and yet they are one.

Again it is part of the mystery of the Godhead.

The name Jehovah is attributed to both the Father and the Son, however I believe the majority of the time it is associated with the Son. Whereas Elohiym and its variations, though also used in reference to each person of the Trinity, is used the majority of the time in association with the Father. The names are interchanged to bring forth the doctrine of the singular God, and yet are used to specifically show the Trinity of persons in the Godhead.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

Do you think the Bible is talking about One-Man-Show?

The Bible was given to us to reveal Christ the Saviour of men. It is only in an understanding of His person, and His work that we can even begin to understand the Father.

Christ is revealed fully in the Old Testament, but it is in types and shadows, and intentionally hidden from the natural man. However, when they turn to Christ then the veil is removed,and they will see Him throughout the Old Testament scriptures as per 2 Cor 3:13-16.

The Bible is progressive revelation of the person of Christ. And He has too many titles to mention, including “Angel of the covenant”, “Ancient of days”, “Captain of the host”, “Righteous branch”, etc”

In Genesis Christ is the ‘seed of the woman’
In Exodus Christ is the ‘passover lamb’
In Leviticus Christ is the ‘priest’
Etc….

Where was the God the Father in OT if Jehovah was the Son of God?

When a person truly sees Christ, then and ONLY then can they see the Father.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, …he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

Absolutely not, Jesus being Jehovah is one of the most basic tenets of the Christian faith. Jesus is God, God’s name is Jehovah, therefore Jesus is Jehovah.
http://www.bible-topics.com/Christ-is-God.html


There is a better one than that even,
Matt 22:43-45 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

In this verse, ‘LORD’ is Jehovah, ‘Lord’ is Christ, and yet they are one.

Again it is part of the mystery of the Godhead.

The name Jehovah is attributed to both the Father and the Son, however I believe the majority of the time it is associated with the Son. Whereas Elohiym and its variations, though also used in reference to each person of the Trinity, is used the majority of the time in association with the Father. The names are interchanged to bring forth the doctrine of the singular God, and yet are used to specifically show the Trinity of persons in the Godhead.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word , and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.


The Bible was given to us to reveal Christ the Saviour of men. It is only in an understanding of His person, and His work that we can even begin to understand the Father.

Christ is revealed fully in the Old Testament, but it is in types and shadows, and intentionally hidden from the natural man. However, when they turn to Christ then the veil is removed,and they will see Him throughout the Old Testament scriptures as per 2 Cor 3:13-16.

The Bible is progressive revelation of the person of Christ. And He has too many titles to mention, including “Angel of the covenant”, “Ancient of days”, “Captain of the host”, “Righteous branch”, etc”

In Genesis Christ is the ‘seed of the woman’
In Exodus Christ is the ‘passover lamb’
In Leviticus Christ is the ‘priest’
Etc….
When a person truly sees Christ, then and ONLY then can they see the Father.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, …he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

BGTF

It is good that you emphasize the deity of Jesus. But if you try to answer my question about Isa 53:10-12, equating He and I, then you will find a big problem with your theology.
No one prays God the Father shed the Blood at the Cross. or No one says God the Son heard the Cry of Eli Eli Lama Sabachtani from Jesus.

 

[Eliyahu]

Outside of 1 Cor 10:4, all references to the preincarnate Christ are speculative at best, despite what commentators venture.

It is not a mere speculation that Jesus Christ worked in OT times.

He said Abraham saw His days which is stronger expression than he saw Jesus ( Jn 8:53-59), then Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ better than all the treasures of Egypt ( Heb 11:26), Heb writer compared similarity between Melchizedek and Son of God ( Heb 7), and Jacob confessed about His Redeemer (Gn 48:16). He also mentioned the Angel was God ( Gn 31:11-13)

Malack and Elohim are translated as angel or angels in English, and Malack appears over 210 times and among them, apparently about 50 times are used as theophanic angel, Special Envoy of God.

Ignorance of this truth was affected by RCC as well as they describe Christ as the baby born by Mary, the perpetual virgin.

 

[TCGreek]

It is not a mere speculation that Jesus Christ worked in OT times.

He said Abraham saw His days which is stronger expression than he saw Jesus ( Jn 8:53-59), then Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ better than all the treasures of Egypt ( Heb 11:26), Heb writer compared similarity between Melchizedek and Son of God ( Heb 7), and Jacob confessed about His Redeemer (Gn 48:16). He also mentioned the Angel was God ( Gn 31:11-13)

1. I encourage you to use the scriptural data better than that, for you have just proven my point.

2. You have found yourself distorting Scripture for your own end. For example, what does Heb.7 have to do with the preincarnate Christ as a theophany in the OT? Heb. 7 does not support that?

Malack and Elohim are translated as angel or angels in English, and Malack appears over 210 times and among them, apparently about 50 times are used as theophanic angel, Special Envoy of God.

3. What is the point of this data, for you're arguing nothing but data?

Ignorance of this truth was affected by RCC as well as they describe Christ as the baby born by Mary, the perpetual virgin.

4. Demonstrate the preincarnate Christ conclusively from the scriptural data and then you can speak of "this truth."

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

It is good that you emphasize the deity of Jesus. But if you try to answer my question about Isa 53:10-12, equating He and I, then you will find a big problem with your theology.
No one prays God the Father shed the Blood at the Cross. or No one says God the Son heard the Cry of Eli Eli Lama Sabachtani from Jesus.

My understanding of Isaiah 53:10-12 is that "I' or "LORD" is representing Christ as God, and "he" is representing Christ as man. Very much like Matt 22:44 with LORD and Lord.

From my previous post, do you at least agree now that Jesus is Jehovah?


BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

1. I encourage you to use the scriptural data better than that, for you have just proven my point.

I showed you the Bible verses. You are seeing, you see not, you are hearing you hear not. ( Mt 13:13)

You mentioned only 1 Cor 10:4, and said that other than that are just speculative at best. I mentioned Heb 11:26 and Jn 8:53-59 already.
How could Moses work for Christ?
Are they just speculative? Did Jesus say his speculation that Abraham saw His Days?

Then I told you the similarity between Melchizedek and Son of God.

Read it here:

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Who can be on the Earth that has Neither mother nor father, nor beginning of the days, nor end of life, in the similitude of Son of God, and abideth a continual priest?

I can tell you this:

Heb 5:
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. 11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

2. You have found yourself distorting Scripture for your own end.

I have not found myself distorting Scripture, Sir. Where did I do that? You are distorting what I have not found, Sir.

For example, what does Heb.7 have to do with the preincarnate Christ as a theophany in the OT? Heb. 7 does not support that?

You lack the knowledge of Bible quite a lot and therefore you stated such from the beginning Sir. Who could collect the Tithe from Abraham, and bless Abraham, give the Wine and Bread to him in the name of King of Salem, King of Righteousness?
What did Jesus point out when He said Abraham saw His days?

3. What is the point of this data, for you're arguing nothing but data?
4. Demonstrate the preincarnate Christ conclusively from the scriptural data and then you can speak of "this truth."

I have plenty of passages to show the Theopanic Angel. However, I would wait until you can digest what I showed you already. Otherwise, further information will become another waste.