Christology

[Eliyahu]

My understanding of Isaiah 53:10-12 is that "I' or "LORD" is representing Christ as God, and "he" is representing Christ as man. Very much like Matt 22:44 with LORD and Lord.

From my previous post, do you at least agree now that Jesus is Jehovah?
BGTF

No, I disagree that Yehowah is Yeshuah.

One good thing of your approach is the emphasis of Deity of Jesus.

Another thing is that Jesus worked quite a lot in OT times.
When Jesus was here on Earth, He explained about Himself shown in the Bible, Book of Moses, Prophets, Psalms. In other words, there are many verses which Jesus explained Disciples about Himself in OT but we do not find many of them yet.

Now the problem of your theology is that you equate Jehovah with Jesus, which cause too much expansion of doctrines from Trinity.
There are some limits in Trinity because Human syllogism doesn't work there.
For example, RCC brings Theotokos that Mary is Mother of God from Trinity.
But it contradicts Trinity itself as Mary is not the Mother of God the Father, nor the mother of God the Holy Spirit. Then was she Mother of God the Son at the time of Creation? No. Then was Jesus not the Creator of Mary? Yes! Did Jesus get any divinity from Mary? NOPE!

Your expansion of Trinity exceeding the Biblical expression, other than what the Bible says will cause unnecessary arguments, Friendly Fire, etc.


Now we can review Isaiah 53

1) verse 1.
Was the Arm of Johavah the same as Jehovah Himself? If so, why didn't Bible state that Jehovah showed and suffered.
Is the arm of BGTF the same as BGTF? You may be amputated, but you are still BGTF.

In OT so many verses equates Jehovah as God. But there is no other equation unless there is a specific statement like Gn 31:11-13.

2) verse 10
And it pleased LORD to bruise him; He hath put him to grief. When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see (his) seed. He shall prolong (his) days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

(Interpretation)
It please LORD to bruise ( crucify) Jesus, He ( LORD) has put him( Jesus) to grief. When you offer His Soul ( Jesus' Soul) for Sin Offering by believing what He did at the Cross. Then Jesus will see His Seed ( you become a new believer), God shall prolong his days ( Days of the Seed, because the seed like you will have the eternal life because of the faith), and the pleasure of the LORD will prosper in the hand of the seed.

3) verse 11
His righteous servant is Jesus, The speaker " my" is Jehovah, God the Father. Otherwise, you will find the contradiction in v 10.

4) verse 12
I is God the Father and He is God the Son, Jesus.

Otherwise, any other formula will find the contradiction.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

No, I disagree that Yehowah is Yeshuah.

And you have read all these links?

Especially this one
http://www.bible-topics.com/Christ-is-God.html

http://www.geocities.com/truedino/jesusis.htm
http://christianbeliefs.org/articles/jehovah.html

I can't accept a disagreement until you confirm to me that you have read all three of these links.

One good thing of your approach is the emphasis of Deity of Jesus.

There can be no other approach.

Another thing is that Jesus worked quite a lot in OT times.
When Jesus was here on Earth, He explained about Himself shown in the Bible, Book of Moses, Prophets, Psalms. In other words, there are many verses which Jesus explained Disciples about Himself in OT but we do not find many of them yet.

I can agree with most of that except for the 'we do not find many of them yet' part. There are some on the majority of pages of the OT.

Now the problem of your theology is that you equate Jehovah with Jesus, which cause too much expansion of doctrines from Trinity.

It is not a problem, it is THE feature of Christianity.

Now we can review Isaiah 53

1) verse 1.
Was the Arm of Johavah the same as Jehovah Himself? If so, why didn't Bible state that Jehovah showed and suffered.
Is the arm of BGTF the same as BGTF? You may be amputated, but you are still BGTF.

In OT so many verses equates Jehovah as God. But there is no other equation unless there is a specific statement like Gn 31:11-13.

I agree that in Gen 31:11-13 the 'angel of God' is Christ. But there are many others.

2) verse 10
And it pleased LORD to bruise him; He hath put him to grief. When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see (his) seed. He shall prolong (his) days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

(Interpretation)
It please LORD to bruise ( crucify) Jesus, He ( LORD) has put him( Jesus) to grief. When you offer His Soul ( Jesus' Soul) for Sin Offering by believing what He did at the Cross. Then Jesus will see His Seed ( you become a new believer), God shall prolong his days ( Days of the Seed, because the seed like you will have the eternal life because of the faith), and the pleasure of the LORD will prosper in the hand of the seed.

3) verse 11
His righteous servant is Jesus, The speaker " my" is Jehovah, God the Father. Otherwise, you will find the contradiction in v 10.

4) verse 12
I is God the Father and He is God the Son, Jesus.

Otherwise, any other formula will find the contradiction.

There is no contradiction.

From Spurgeon's Morning and Evening, December 25th morning.

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
— Isa 7:14

Let us to-day go down to Bethlehem, and in company with wondering shepherds and adoring Magi, let us see Him who was born King of the Jews, for we by faith can claim an interest in Him, and can sing, "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given." Jesus is Jehovah incarnate, our Lord and our God, and yet our brother and friend; let us adore and admire. ....

BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

And you have read all these links?

Especially this one
http://www.bible-topics.com/Christ-is-God.html

http://www.geocities.com/truedino/jesusis.htm
http://christianbeliefs.org/articles/jehovah.html

I can't accept a disagreement until you confirm to me that you have read all three of these links.
There can be no other approach.
I can agree with most of that except for the 'we do not find many of them yet' part. There are some on the majority of pages of the OT.

It is not a problem, it is THE feature of Christianity.

I agree that in Gen 31:11-13 the 'angel of God' is Christ. But there are many others.

There is no contradiction.

From Spurgeon's Morning and Evening, December 25th morning.

BGTF

I have checked your sites. One of them refered to the brethen from Gospel Hall which is a part of PB's as well. The belief may be called the Tri-One God faith which is rather between Modalism and Trinity. As the Trinity often depicts the Godheads as a Monster with 3 heads and one body, there are many Bible verses which cannot be understood by Trinity concept. When we look at the Sun, we cannot see it properly. The 3 Godheads may be sharing everything in common but with a little different characters on the surface. However, as I pointed out the cases of Isaiah 53:10-12, I and He are different personal entities. Their job titles are different.
I used to attend both Messianic Jewish Congregations on Saturdays and PB's on Sundays, and those Messianic Jews have made a great study on the linkage between Messiah prophesied in OT and Christ in NT. Also, I heard about such Tri-One God belief from a group called Witness Lee's based in Anaheim, Ca.
So, most of the Bible verses quoted in your quoted sites are familiar to me and I used to have the notion that the Godheads must be more distinguished than the Modalism but more closer than the Trinity.

A little more emphatical evidence to support your claim may be Psalm 16:10 Holy One which is also mentioned in your sites.
If we read Isaiah 48:17 we find the LORD ( Jehovah) is the Redeemer and the Holy One, and this Ha-Kodesh is so much famous among the Israelites as indicating LORD, HaShem. But how come He shall not see the corruption? It is of course because He was to be killed and to be resurrected.
As you indicated Isa 40:3 and Mt 3:3, both identifies Jehovah as Jesus.

But we must remember another aspect of this, because the name of God can be shared between 3 Godheads as we read Mt 28:19 which uses 1 singular name for 3 persons of God.
All the nature of Jehovah God the Father can be shared by Jesus God the Son, and Jesus could act anytime identically with God the Father.

You mentioned many cases of Pre-Enlfeshment Jesus ( I don't like to use Pre-Incarnate or Incarnation but prefer Enfleshment) in OT.
If you know the Hebrew word, Malack and El ( Angel) Elohim ( Angels), as I mentioned, you can find Malack more than 210 times, among them 50 times are the Theopanic Angels. Those verses you referred to are the appearance of this Malack.
Genesis 18, 22, 31, 32, 48, Exodus 3, 23, Joshua, Gideon, Manoah, Malachi, etc are all Malack's appearance.
YOu interpret Jehovah in Gn 18 is the Pre-enfleshment Jesus, but I interpret those 2 angels ( Malack's) accompanying Jehovah were Jesus and the Holy Spirit as they have the authority to JUdge in the next chapter about Sodom and Gomorrah.
Between Isa 40:3 and Mt 3:3 it is simple to understand that the identity is because both Jehovah and Jesus are sharing everything in common.

Now, if you look at Ex 23:20-23, we can find the relationship clearer.

Exodus
20 Behold, I send an Angel ( Malack) before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. 22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. 23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.


Who is this Angel ?
1) Moses had to obey him ; Human beings are not supposed to obey the angels because the angels are created to serve human beings.

2) the Angel has the authority to forgive sins. Does any angel have such authority? No one except God.

3) The extremely, extremely horrible statement is this :

My Name is in Him

Who can carry the name of the Almighty God in himself?

Someone suggested Joshuah others Michael the Archangel.
But Moses was not to obey his servant Joshuah, nor the archangel Michael who has no authority to pardon sins. None of them can carry the name of Jehovah, the Almighty God.

Here we find who carries that name.

Jn 5
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

JN 17
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus shares the same name with His Father, which means that Jesus is not the same as the Father.
Everything is shared in common between Father and Son, but it doesn't mean that Father is Son.

Between Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah Himself all things are shared in common, but we must admit that there is the difference between the Sender and the Sent.

4) One more horrible aspect of Exodus 23 :21 is that the name which Malack uses is " Jehovah" ( eventually - Yeshuah- Yehowah saves). We must remember that the name itself contains the Deity and Character of God, because Jehovah means the Self Existence in I am that I am.
This means that the Authorization by Jehovah is far different from what we can see the agency of any kings or president like Queen Elizabeth or G Bush. No one can use such name unless he or she has the Eternal nature of Deity.
Only that Malack has such authority to use such name.

However, as I mentioned, do we have to identify both Malack of Jehovah and Jehovah as the same persons? I don't think Jesus did so.

Simply I reject the identity between Jesus and Jehovah because Jesus didn't do so and Bible doesn't do so, even though they shared so many things in common in Bible, even though they share everything in common.
Shema Israel ( De 6:4-) emphasize the only God, but God Himself already embrace the Plurality and we should avoid any concept of three head monster with one body for God, but we should avoid the same identity between the God heads.

The reason why I said we don't know many of the events where Jesus worked in OT times was because there are much more events where Jesus worked not only in the form of Malack, but also as Right Hand, Yeshuah ( Salvation), Anointed, Pillar of Clouds, etc. These need more studies.

Did Jehovah have a Father? I don't think so. Jesus has a Father and He is Jehovah. Did Jehovah ever say that He was sent by His Father? Never, but Jesus did many times. Jesus is God, the Almighty God.

One more thing with Ex 23 is that LORD treats what the malack does as the same as what He does, in v 23 ( mine Angel... I will cut them off).

Likewise, in Isaiah 53, Servant of Jehovah cannot be the same as Jehovah Himself, though that Servant is God the Son, the God Almighty sharing everything in common with God the Father Almighty.

We should stay with the Bible expression instead of drawing another title by human syllogism.

 

[TCGreek]

You mentioned only 1 Cor 10:4, and said that other than that are just speculative at best. I mentioned Heb 11:26 and Jn 8:53-59 already.
How could Moses work for Christ?
Are they just speculative? Did Jesus say his speculation that Abraham saw His Days?

1. The inspired writers says of Moses that it was by faith (11:26ff).

2. "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad." (John 8:56). Where's the theophany here?

Then I told you the similarity between Melchizedek and Son of God.

Read it here:

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Who can be on the Earth that has Neither mother nor father, nor beginning of the days, nor end of life, in the similitude of Son of God, and abideth a continual priest?

3. And your point is?

I can tell you this:

Heb 5:
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. 11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing 12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

4. Who then was this Melchizedek since you're referring to his so much? Was he the preincarnate Christ?

I have not found myself distorting Scripture, Sir. Where did I do that? You are distorting what I have not found, Sir.


You lack the knowledge of Bible quite a lot and therefore you stated such from the beginning Sir. Who could collect the Tithe from Abraham, and bless Abraham, give the Wine and Bread to him in the name of King of Salem, King of Righteousness?
What did Jesus point out when He said Abraham saw His days?

5. The Bible says Melchizedek. Stick with the Bible.

I have plenty of passages to show the Theopanic Angel. However, I would wait until you can digest what I showed you already. Otherwise, further information will become another waste.

6. Would not change the fact that they are all circumstantial at best.

 

[Eliyahu]

1. The inspired writers says of Moses that it was by faith (11:26ff).

Yes, the faith taught Moses about Pre-enfleshment Jesus Christ. But he met Him in person.

2. "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad." (John 8:56). Where's the theophany here?

3. And your point is?

I can tell you this:

Apparently you don't know much about how God the Son worked in the OT times. You better read thru my previous post and the sites which BGTF quoted. Otherwise, it takes too much time for me to explain. I explained about Ex 23:20-23. Have you read it thru? Have you checked Genesis 18?
When do you think Abraham saw the days of Jesus Christ mentioned in Jn 8:56-59?

4. Who then was this Melchizedek since you're referring to his so much? Was he the preincarnate Christ?

Yes, none other than He.

5. The Bible says Melchizedek. Stick with the Bible.

Where is Melchizedek now, the person who has no end of life?

 

[TCGreek]

Well, since you so passionate about your conclusions about the preincarnate Christ in the OT days, though your data is circumstantial and not conclusive, then there's nothing else for us to argue at this point.

 

[Eliyahu]

Well, since you so passionate about your conclusions about the preincarnate Christ in the OT days, though your data is circumstantial and not conclusive, then there's nothing else for us to argue at this point.

It is up to you and I am not forcing you either.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

As you indicated Isa 40:3 and Mt 3:3, both identifies Jehovah as Jesus.
….
Simply I reject the identity between Jesus and Jehovah because Jesus didn't do so and Bible doesn't do so

First you say the Bible identifies Jehovah as Jesus, and then you say you reject that because the Bible doesn’t do so, you must pick only ONE of those two options.

From the last link I posted:
Jesus also solemnly declared, if you believe not that I AM, you shall die in your sins.….Jesus meant nothing short of this: except you believe that I am Jehovah you shall die in your sins.


BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

First you say the Bible identifies Jehovah as Jesus, and then you say you reject that because the Bible doesn’t do so, you must pick only ONE of those two options.

From the last link I posted:
Jesus also solemnly declared, if you believe not that I AM, you shall die in your sins.….Jesus meant nothing short of this: except you believe that I am Jehovah you shall die in your sins.

BGTF

1. How can you deny that God the Father was crucified since anyone who has seen Jesus has seen God the Father?

There is a difference between the expression of representation and the Godhead Relationship.

Now we see several cases:

2. Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him(John) that crieth in the Wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD( Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mt 3:3 For this is he( John) that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying The voice of one (John)crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord(LORD=Jesus), make his paths straight.

Why does Mt equates Jehovah and Jesus? It is because Jesus has everything in common with Jehovah, emboied Jehovah, and represent Him in the same name, though they are in relationship of Father and Son.
Because the people who have seen Jesus have seen Jehovah.

3. Malachi 3:1 and Mr 1:2-3

Mark 1:3 is apparently from Isa 40:3 which is explained above.

As for Mk 1:2,
A problem is that there is a difference between Malachi 3:1 and Mk 1:2

Mal 3:1 " Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me, and the Lord ( Ha-Adon : Singular) whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the messenger of the covenant whom ye delight in, Behold, He shall come," saith the LORD of Hosts.

Mk 1:2
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

I don't accept the claim that NT quoted Septuagint ( LXX) because I found many differences between NT quotes and LXX, moreover in this verse LXX is the same as the MT.
So, my interpretation about Mk 1:2 is that it might have not translated Mal 3:1 on the Word-to-Word principle but the meaning of it was translated.

If we look at mal 3:1, it is very much clear and understandable.

Behold I will send my messenger ( Malack-John the Baptist), and he shall prepare the way before me ( Jesus; because Jesus has the full Authority from Jehovah), the Lord ( Ha-Adon, Singular, Jesus) whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple, ( He is ) even the Malack( Theopanic) of Covenant whom you delight in, Behold He shall come, Says the Jehovah of Hosts.

Though Jehovah treated Jesus as Himself in the second sentence, but from the third sentence, He calls " the Lord", "Malack of Covenant," "He"

So, Jehovah differentiated between Himself and Jesus.
One thing to be careful is that the Malack for John should be understood to be different from Malack of Covenant for Jesus.

4. Exodus 23:20-23

I already explained the difference between the Angel of Jehovah and Jehovah Himself, though the Malack has the full authority to speak in the name of Jehovah, to represent Him as if Jehovah Himself.
No one can carry the name of Almighty God, Jehovah, except Jesus Christ, because the word Jehovah itself is the deity and divine nature. Therefore, Benny Hinn was absolutely wrong and blasphemous when he said he is a Little Jehovah.

5. Judges 13:16
Clearly mentions Malack of the LORD. We must distinguish between Angel of the LORD and LORD Himself. Otherwise we claim One Godhead God.
The Angel instructed to offer the Sacrifice to the LORD instead of any meal for Him and His name was told " Peleh" ( Wonderful) which is found in Isaiah 9:6

6. Isaiah 53:10-12

I already mentioned that we cannot equate Jehovah and " my righteous Servant", He and I, Arm of Jehovah and Jehovah Himself, even though both persons share everything in common.

Your argument has come because the typical Trinity believers often have the concept of the God like a monster with 3 heads and one body, though they also admit the Common sharing of all the natures and the name in common.
However, I believe Jehovah was the Sender and Jesus was the Sent ( Shiloach=Shiloam in Jn 9:7-10), Jehovah was the Father and His Son is Jesus. Though we believe that the people who have seen Jesus have seen God the Father but God the Father was not crucified at the Cross. We don't say the fact that God the Son was crucified means God the Father was crucified as the Father was in the Son.
The full authorization by the Father was limited to the fullfilment of the Will of Father.



If you do not believe that I am (He), you shall die in your sins.

1) It can be interpretted as If you do not believe that I am the Messiah who was prophesied, then you shall die in your sins.

2) Deut 32:39 - I am He, which is the typical expression for God. In this case, Jesus identifies Himself with God, Jehovah because He has the full authority and full representation, being the Messiah.

So, throughout your study, I am sure the relationship between God the Father and God the Son is found to be much closer than the understanding by the typical ( or conventional, or whatever) understanding by Trinity.
But I would still remain in the truth that Jehovah is the Father and Jesus is the Son.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

No one can carry the name of Almighty God, Jehovah, except Jesus Christ, because the word Jehovah itself is the deity and divine nature.

And, therefore, Jesus IS Jehovah.

But I would still remain in the truth that Jehovah is the Father and Jesus is the Son.

Remember, Jehovah ALSO refers to the Father, likewise Jesus IS Jehovah. God's name is Jehovah, Jesus is God, therefore Jesus is Jehovah. A denial at this point is a denial of the person of Christ.


BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally Posted by Eliyahu
No one can carry the name of Almighty God, Jehovah, except Jesus Christ, because the word Jehovah itself is the deity and divine nature.


And, therefore, Jesus IS Jehovah.

Though the 3 Godheads are distinguished, they can still have the same name as we read Mt 28:19. Do you see that they have one singular name for 3 Godheads, Father, Son, Holy Spirit ? So the fact that both share the same name doesn't mean that they are the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliyahu
But I would still remain in the truth that Jehovah is the Father and Jesus is the Son.

Remember, Jehovah ALSO refers to the Father, likewise Jesus IS Jehovah. God's name is Jehovah, Jesus is God, therefore Jesus is Jehovah. A denial at this point is a denial of the person of Christ.

BGTF

Where is it?
How could you equate the Righteous Servant and Jehovah Himself in Isaiah 53?

How could you equate the Angel in Exodus 23:20-23 and Jehovah in the same sentence?

Jesus wouldn't say so if He is asked.

Where was the Father working during OT times? Was He sleeping if Jehovah was God the Son?

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Though the 3 Godheads are distinguished, they can still have the same name as we read Mt 28:19. Do you see that they have one singular name for 3 Godheads, Father, Son, Holy Spirit ? So the fact that both share the same name doesn't mean that they are the same.

There is ONE Godhead, comprised of THREE persons. To deny that Jesus IS Jehovah, is to deny that Jesus belongs to the ONE Godhead. To deny that Jesus is Jehovah, and yet hold to His divinity, creates a situation of multiple Gods, hence dualism. Remember, it is ONE God, three persons!

The misunderstanding is probably around the definition of a "person".

Where was the Father working during OT times? Was He sleeping if Jehovah was God the Son?

They are not divided up so neatly as you may like. There are some places like Isa 64:8, where the allusion to one person (the Father in this case) appears rather obvious, but mostly there are intentional references alluding to more than one person of the singular Godhead.

IE. The term LORD God in Gen 2:4 refers to all three persons of the singular Godhead, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

It is one God whose name is Jehovah, for which that name has been applied to all three persons. However because the Bible is intentionally a progressive revelation of Jesus Christ, when the particular word Jehovah is used in the OT, the majority of times it is used to reference the second person of the Trinity.

Where the Bible divides we are to divide, IE Gal 1:1-3 it is not the Father who was raised from the dead, it was only the Son, hence it was not the person of the Father who died on the cross. There are also places where the Bible doesn't divide, and there we are not to divide IE Gen 2:4 compared to Isa 64:8, Col 1:16-17, Job 33:4. Gen 2:4 includes all three persons, to deny that, you have to deny that Jesus is Jehovah, and believe that He as well as the Holy Spirit are not the Creator.


BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

There is ONE Godhead, comprised of THREE persons. To deny that Jesus IS Jehovah, is to deny that Jesus belongs to the ONE Godhead. To deny that Jesus is Jehovah, and yet hold to His divinity, creates a situation of multiple Gods, hence dualism. Remember, it is ONE God, three persons!

The misunderstanding is probably around the definition of a "person".


They are not divided up so neatly as you may like. There are some places like Isa 64:8, where the allusion to one person (the Father in this case) appears rather obvious, but mostly there are intentional references alluding to more than one person of the singular Godhead.

IE. The term LORD God in Gen 2:4 refers to all three persons of the singular Godhead, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

It is one God whose name is Jehovah, for which that name has been applied to all three persons. However because the Bible is intentionally a progressive revelation of Jesus Christ, when the particular word Jehovah is used in the OT, the majority of times it is used to reference the second person of the Trinity.

Where the Bible divides we are to divide, IE Gal 1:1-3 it is not the Father who was raised from the dead, it was only the Son, hence it was not the person of the Father who died on the cross. There are also places where the Bible doesn't divide, and there we are not to divide IE Gen 2:4 compared to Isa 64:8, Col 1:16-17, Job 33:4. Gen 2:4 includes all three persons, to deny that, you have to deny that Jesus is Jehovah, and believe that He as well as the Holy Spirit are not the Creator.
BGTF

You'd better take this issue to the other thread for Trinity. I guess you can hardly find the buyer though you are here so much condemning me as ignorant of Godhead and deity of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

There is ONE Godhead, comprised of THREE persons.

True.

YHWH is the name for God and applies to all three persons of the ONE Godhead for as scripture states "the LORD your God is ONE" and His name is YHWH.


Jesus is the human name for God the Son, incarnate and so in human form. But God the son existed from eternity past and was named "Jesus" in that eternity.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

True.

YHWH is the name for God and applies to all three persons of the ONE Godhead for as scripture states "the LORD your God is ONE" and His name is YHWH.


Jesus is the human name for God the Son, incarnate and so in human form. But God the son existed from eternity past and was named "Jesus" in that eternity.

in Christ,

Bob

One argument on this thread is whether Jehovah=Jesus which is claimed by BGTF.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

One argument on this thread is whether Jehovah=Jesus which is claimed by BGTF.

It is not Jehovah=Jesus, but that Jesus is Jehovah, and likewise so is the Father.

BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

It is not Jehovah=Jesus, but that Jesus is Jehovah, and likewise so is the Father.

BGTF

It is not the word game, I would ask the others opinion.

 

[Eliyahu]

We'd better have more open discussion on this issue.

I don't think I am the only one who refuse call Jesus is Jehovah and Jehovah is God the Son.

You didn't answer me where was God the Father in OT.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

We'd better have more open discussion on this issue.

I don't think I am the only one who refuse call Jesus is Jehovah and Jehovah is God the Son.

You are not alone, but you are not in good company.

The good company all agrees that Jesus is Jehovah.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1100457&postcount=62

You didn't answer me where was God the Father in OT.

I did answer you, a couple posts up. Gen 2:4, Isa 64:8 are both good examples, however Gen 2:4 also includes the Son and the Holy Spirit.


BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

You are not alone, but you are not in good company.

The good company all agrees that Jesus is Jehovah.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1100457&postcount=62

I did answer you, a couple posts up. Gen 2:4, Isa 64:8 are both good examples, however Gen 2:4 also includes the Son and the Holy Spirit.

BGTF

You may be one of a few Christians who claim that Jesus is Jehovah and that if anyone do not believe it, he or she should go to the Hell.

You must distinguish this.

Jehovah was not the name for anyone to utter.
Nobody knows the exact pronunciation of Jehovah as the vowels are not recorded.
None of the NT writers uttered the name of Jehovah.
You can never find the word Jehovah in NT.
Jesus is the name that the believers can call upon.

In OT times, God the Father worked mainly as the representative of the deity.
Jesus God the Son worked on this earth as a prophet, and at the end He sacrificed Himself as the Offering, and He did it as a Priest, now He is coming as the King of Kings.

After the Resurrection of Jesus and His ascension, the Holy Spirit takes the charge. This is the age for the Holy Spirit, though all 3 Godheads work together.

So, Jehovah was God the Father and sent His Servant, His Son, Jesus Christ. Otherwise you encounter a lot of contradiction as I indicated in Isaiah 53 and Exodus 23.

Exodus 24:10-11 is anothe example. No one could see God ( Elohim, Plural) but the 70 Israelites saw Elohim and eat the food under the feet of Elohim ( Ex 24:9-11). In your logic, they could have seen only Jehovah.