Church history and Evangelical Protestantism

What does "History" say..."

Bible History says: "God does not dwell in temples made with hands. God is Spirit, they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine.":BangHead:

Secular History says: the religions of the world are thus and such...the world is filled with "religion".

The truth of the matter is written in the Blood of the Saints. Many of the accounts have been repressed and burned. The blood of the saints still cries out across the annals of all history.:type:
Will the Lord find "the Faith" when He returns? :sleeping_2:

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Michael, your own 'tag line' from one St. Cyprian shows that there are some 'histoical' references from fairly early in Church or ecclesiastical history. I would suppose one can find much on the internet. Some who have long preceeded you or I, in the area of church history, include two rather large treatises on church history, namely Phillip Schaff and Kenneth Scott Latourette. My spelling of both of these names may be off, but both have obviously done extensive research in these fields. Othere sources would include the so-called N.T. Apocrypha, and Pseudopigrapha, which would have information in them. The writings of the so-called Patristic Fathers, Apostolic fathers, Ante-Nicene fathers, etc., are all around to one degree or another. So yes, there is some things out there. How easy they are for you (or me) to get access to, may well be another question. And how detailed any of them are towards 'church practice' is an open question, to me, as well. But I assume several have said something, 'good' or 'bad', a la St. Cyprian. Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Origen, Augustine, Clement of Rome to name just a few, could serve as starting points. One might look on the 'Net, searching "Church Fathers", and/or "Apostolic Fathers", and "early Church History", for a few suggestions, and see what 'pops' up. It might surprise you.

Oh yeah, you might not want to put too much stock into a couple of those you might find. :tongue3: I semi-jokingly accused my closest friend once, that his two favorites from the early days of Church History were Marcion the Heretic, and Julian the Apostate. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

In my studies of the history of the Church I have come to the conclusion that we have to divide the Church history into two time frames. The pre-Constantine church and the post-Constantine church. I believe that Christ and the Apostles set up the pre-Constantine church, but even after the first reformation, we still have the post-Constantine church.

The first reformation was an attempt to reform the false teachings of the Catholic church, but it failed to reform the practices, instead they simply took the practices brought to the church by Constantine and replaced them with modified practices that changed over the years with each denomination. I believe we need a 2nd reformation to help reform the Church back to what Christ and the Apostles set up before Catholicism and Constantine came on the scene.

One book that deals with the history of the modern church is by Frank Viola titled Pagan Christianity: The Origins of Our Modern Church Practices. He has another book that looks at the history of the Church from 4 B.C. to A.D. 70, titled From Nazareth to Patmos. I haven't read either of Viola's books yet, but have had them recommended to me numerous times during my study of Church history over the last 3+ years. One that I have read and can personally recommend is Ekklesia: To the Roots of Biblical Church Life by Steve Atkerson.

 

The Jerusalem Church worshipped in the Temple according to Jewish ritual. Paul's gentiles had to improvise.

 

Just so I'm not misunderstanding you, is the purpose of this thread then your attempt to prove that the Catholic church is the true church? The Catholic church claims to be the first Christian church founded on the teachings of Jesus Christ and built on Peter. I am sure you can find many Catholic quotes from the last 1000+ years that say that, but I'm sure if you look at the other false religions out there, you will find many quotes from their sources saying they are the true church as well.

I never claimed that Constantine "created" the Catholic Church, I said, "I believe we need a 2nd reformation to help reform the Church back to what Christ and the Apostles set up before Catholicism and Constantine came on the scene." Notice the "and" meaning Catholicism and Constantine being two separate things.

I belive the false religion of Catholicism and all of the many historical quotes that can be found helped to destroy the Church that Christ and the Apostles created, and Constantine helped promote those false teachings and the destruction of the Church much faster than any Catholic before him was able to do.

The best thing to do with all the quotes and teachings of the Catholic church is to weigh them against the Scriputures, if they contradict, then the quotes and teachings must be wrong. It doesn't matter if the quotes come from someone who was hand picked by the disciples, we know from reading Pauls writings that there was false teachings and apostasy even in the early churches like the ones in Corinth.

 

Ignatius taught the false gospel and false Christ of the Eucharist. In his epistle to the Ephesians, Ignatius writes,

. . . so that ye obey the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote to prevent us from dying, but [which causes] that we should live for ever in Jesus Christ. (ibid., p. 58, chap. XX)
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In his epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Ignatius likewise writes,

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. (ibid., p. 89, chap. VII)
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The above is classic Roman Catholic Eucharistic false doctrine. In the two quotes above, Ignatius makes the Eucharist out to be the Savior and that which will save a soul and grant eternal life. The only bread and blood that can save the soul and grant eternal life is the spiritual bread and blood of the real Lord Jesus Christ (John 6:35, 53, 63). Despite the false claim of the hocus-pocus of Catholic mystical incantations (transubstantiation), fleshly bread (flour and water) and literal wine will save no one ("the flesh profits nothing," John 6:63).

Furthermore, Ignatius promoted a serious submission to the Catholic bishop. In his epistle to the Trallians (shorter version), Ignatius writes,

He that is within the altar is pure, but he that is without is not pure; that is, he who does anything apart from the bishop, and presbytery, and deacons, such a man is not pure in his conscience. (ibid., p. 69, chap. VII)
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In his epistle to the Philadelphians he writes,

Do nothing without the bishop; . . . (ibid., p. 84, chap. VII)
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In his epistle to the Magnesians he writes,

As therefore the Lord did nothing without the Father, being united to Him, neither by Himself nor by the apostles, so neither do ye anything without the bishop and presbyters. (ibid., p. 62, chap. VII, entitled, "DO NOTHING WITHOUT THE BISHOP AND PRESBYTERS")
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In his epistle to the Smyrnaeans he writes,

It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. (ibid., p. 90, chap. VIII)
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Scripture nowhere dictates who may baptize or who may celebrate a love-feast (Proverbs 4:20-27; 30:5-6). Plus, Ignatius exalts the bishop here to Pope-like status claiming "whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God."
Ignatius further writes,

It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. (ibid., chap. IX)
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Scripture indeed teaches that believers are to give honor to and be subject to those who rule over them (1 Thessalonians 5:12-13a; ;1 Timothy 5:17; Hebrews 13:7, 17). But, Ignatius takes this way beyond what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6) and adds to the Word of God (Proverbs 30:5-6).

In his epistle to the Ephesians he writes,

Now the more any one sees the bishop keeping silence, the more ought he to revere him. For we ought to receive every one whom the Master of the house sends to be over His household, as we would do Him that sent him. It is manifest, therefore, that we should look upon the bishop even as we would upon the Lord Himself. (ibid., p. 51, chap. VI)
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This is idolatry! Believers look to the Lord in worship (Isaiah 45:22; John 20:28; Hebrews 12:2). To look to any man as "we would upon the Lord Himself" is idolatry. Therefore, in this alone, Ignatius promotes a damning lie (Revelation 21:8).

 

Quoting authors outside the Scripture--

Is usually a misadventure and always a serious error. Only those inspired by the Holy Spirit wrote without error.:BangHead: The writings of the "Holy Fathers" would not be on list of Holy Writ. This list of spurious writings would also include the "Koran", "Book of Mormon", "Pearl of Great Price" etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, ad infinitum.:BangHead:
Why do we quote and promulgate the teachings of those uninspired?:BangHead:

Jesus: "In vain ye do worship, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.":BangHead:
Are we sure our writ is Holy? Consider who wrote it. Choose wisely.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

You have posted many more quotes from many more Catholic "heros", but that doesn't prove that they were not false teachers. You can base your faith and religion on the teachings and quotes of men, but if they are not found in the Scriptures or if they contradict the Scriptures then you are following a false religion. The Eucharist is a false teaching from the Catholic church and all your quotes do is show more false teachers from withing the Catholic church.

Looking at your first example:

The Apostle Paul once warned, "Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ" (Colossians 2:8).

Sadly any who consider that the philosopher Justin was a true saint and who believe any of the untruths he promulgated have not heeded Paul's warning. Please insure that you heed Paul's warnings and the true teachings from the Bible.

We could start a thread with quotes from the history of the Mormans or the Jehovah's Witnesses, but that wouldn't be proof that they were not false religions.

You and I would probably agree that what is happening today in the modern church is very far from what Christ and the Apostles set up in the first Church, but I don't agree that they had anythnig to do with setting up the false religion of Catholicism.​

 

Actually, you'd think I'd finally learn to read the instructions first, before starting the engine and attempting to put the car in gear. Not me! look quick, compose an answer, then bother to see who I am talking to. You have a post that says you "am the son of a Baptist Pastor, so I speak from..." You previously claimed to be a Baptist. Yet you come across as something far different from any I've ever run into! But not unlike some members of some various sects and/or cults I've met.

Ed

 

That is where the problem lies, I base my worship and ecclesiology on the inspired words found in the Scriptures not on the historic quotes of sinners. You can publish a book on quotes from those who helped build the foundation of the Catholic church, but if those quotes take away from, add to, or contridict with the Scriptures then they are false teachings.

 

Still, you, along with Agnus and Inquiring Mind began under the apparent premises of being "Protestants seeking the truth", but rather than "seeking", it seems you have your minds throroughly set in favor of Catholic/Ortodoxy, when you suddenly go from questioning to begin springing on us attempts to "teach us the truth" according to Catholicism. It seems pretty sneaky to me, and at least one person was recently booted for trying to "evangelize" non-orthodox on this board.

The real debate is not whether the Fathers are true apostolic successors, or just Catholic false teachers. They can have succeeded the apostles, yet still begin putting their own little spins on concepts. THAT is what we see with your quotes on the Eucharist. We go from Christ's metaphorical statement "this is my body", to Ignatius' more ambiguous metaphor ("confess not the Eucharist to be the Body"), to the later fathers declaration of an actual "change" in the elements by the prayer of priests. By now, we added much to a simple scriptural statement, and who's going to challenge it? It is so similar to what the previous leader said. This does not prove it was the apostolic doctrine, but clearly we see a development of a doctrine.

 

Point is, if I'd really bothered to read your tagline, and looked at the profile, I probably would have not entered the thread in the first place. I took your post at face value as one asking for some information, as opposed to attempting to verify one's own conclusions. I cited Cyprian, based solely on the date, without bothering to read the quote. Had I read the quote, and then bothered to look at your profile, a huge red flag would have been lifted in front of me. I have less than no interest to becoming an apologist for anyone by default, whether one is in lock-step agreement, or high-steping kick-boxer. I don't need any toadies for me, and I don't intend to become a source of quotations for any others, good or bad, agreed or disagreed. For my opinion is worth exactly what your's, Cyprian's, Ignatius', Augustine's, Calvin's or Julian's the Apostate is worth. Absolutely zilch, unless it agrees with Scripture. And frankly, the general consensus of opinion of the Baptists, the Catholics, the Lutherans, the Orthodox, the Calvinists, the Arminians, or the whomevers is merely mass ignorance, before the face of Scripture's teachings. The one who would guide into all truth is the Holy Spirit- no ecclesiastical organization of any flavor or locale. And the Lord Jesus Christ is the one who said who would be the guide, not any of the above listed individuals, and certainly not me!

Ed