Church of Christ question

[Jereynolds]

My wife's uncle is a pastor for the Church of Christ and this morning my wife asked what was the main difference between the CoC and Baptists. He replied by stating that the main difference is that the CoC believes that baptism is part of the plan of salvation or "you have to be baptized to be saved" is this actually the case? and if so where does he refrence this in scripture?

 

[The Biblicist]

My wife's uncle is a pastor for the Church of Christ and this morning my wife asked what was the main difference between the CoC and Baptists. He replied by stating that the main difference is that the CoC believes that baptism is part of the plan of salvation or "you have to be baptized to be saved" is this actually the case? and if so where does he refrence this in scripture?

Yes, he is precisely correct. They would refer you to such passages as Mark 16:16; Jn. 3:5; Acts 2:38; 22:16; Titus 3:5 as proof texts.

However, these are all proof texts taken out of context and are thus pretexts for a false doctrine.

 

[Salty]

There main verse is Act 2:38

Also the COC believes the church should serve communion on each Lords Day

They are considered a Restoration movement.

They insist they are non-denominational - but there are
four main groups:

Disciple of Christ ( usually very liberal)
Non-instrumental (usually very conservative)
Instrumental (more less conservative)
International COC (avoid two extremes; overly centralized authority and disconnected autonomy)

Much of their history comes thur the Presbyterian church (but COC is water baptism)

More info here

 

[Jereynolds]

Thanks to both of you for the quick response and the good info!! I became concerned about this when my wife expressed a desire to hear him preach (since he is her uncle) though I think she was a little taken back as well. I am going to dig into those verses that were posted and strengthen my position.

Would the CoC still be considered a Christian church since they hold to a faulty view of salvation? I would say no, but what are other opinions?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Jereynolds,

Would the CoC still be considered a Christian church since they hold to a faulty view of salvation? I would say no, but what are other opinions?

I do not agree with some of their teachings, but I agree that baptism follows a belief of the gospel, and is the appointed method where a believer is united with Jesus in his death and resurrection Romans 6:1-8, and those baptised become inheritors of the promises to Abraham Galatians 3:26-29.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Greetings Jereynolds, I do not agree with some of their teachings, but I agree that baptism follows a belief of the gospel, and is the appointed method where a believer is united with Jesus in his death and resurrection Romans 6:1-8, and those baptised become inheritors of the promises to Abraham Galatians 3:26-29.

Kind regards
Trevor

So, you just excluded all Quakers and Salvation Army members from the Body of Christ.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Michael,

So, you just excluded all Quakers and Salvation Army members from the Body of Christ.

I do not exclude any one, but I hold precious the Word of God and its simple, plain teaching. True childlike faith brings response to what is written.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Jereynolds]

Greetings Jereynolds, I do not agree with some of their teachings, but I agree that baptism follows a belief of the gospel, and is the appointed method where a believer is united with Jesus in his death and resurrection Romans 6:1-8, and those baptised become inheritors of the promises to Abraham Galatians 3:26-29.

Kind regards
Trevor

So you believe that a person must be baptised in order to be saved? and those who are not baptised will suffer eternal punishment?

 

[The Biblicist]

So you believe that a person must be baptised in order to be saved? and those who are not baptised will suffer eternal punishment?

The question is not whether baptism saves, washes away sins, remits sins, etc. The question is HOW does baptism saves, washes away sins, remits sins, etc.!

Does it save literally or figuratively? Peter declares it saves figuratively (1 Pet. 3:21). The writer of Hebrews declares that external ordinances could never literally take away sin (Heb. 10:4) but were like a "shadow" (Heb. 10:1). Hence, they remitted sins, washed them away figuratively.

A "shadow" only provides the form of an object. The shadow has no literal substance. Distort the "shadow" or form and you distort the truth the figure was designed to express in form. The substance is Christ (Col. 2:16) while all divine ordinances are but shadows.

The essence of ceremonial types is their design or pattern or form. A figure is designed by God to convey an intended truth(s). That truth is found in its form. This is why sprinkling and pouring do not convey baptism as both distort the pattern or form which immersion is designed to convey - the truth of the gospel, his death, burial and resurrection.

 

[Jereynolds]

The question is not whether baptism saves, washes away sins, remits sins, etc. The question is HOW does baptism saves, washes away sins, remits sins, etc.!

Does it save literally or figuratively? Peter declares it saves figuratively (1 Pet. 3:21). The writer of Hebrews declares that external ordinances could never literally take away sin (Heb. 10:4) but were like a "shadow" (Heb. 10:1). Hence, they remitted sins, washed them away figuratively.

A "shadow" only provides the form of an object. The shadow has no literal substance. Distort the "shadow" or form and you distort the truth the figure was designed to express in form. The substance is Christ (Col. 2:16) while all divine ordinances are but shadows.

The essence of ceremonial types is their design or pattern or form. A figure is designed by God to convey an intended truth(s). That truth is found in its form. This is why sprinkling and pouring do not convey baptism as both distort the pattern or form which immersion is designed to convey - the truth of the gospel, his death, burial and resurrection.

Thanks for this! I have always been taught that Baptism was merely an outward sign of an inward change and as such i have never placed much importance on it other than it being as such but your explanation has given me a far better understanding and appreciation. I have been Baptist all of my life but have never had more than a simple understanding for the Bible and our Doctrine...about a year ago I started to really dig deeper into scripture and what we believe as Baptists. After I was saved there wasn't any formal discipleship and I more or less developed my own theology based off of second hand knowledge and what I could pick up on my own...anyway off my soap box.

Back to the CoC, they believe though that baptism saves literally and not figuratively?

 

[The Biblicist]

Thanks for this! I have always been taught that Baptism was merely an outward sign of an inward change and as such i have never placed much importance on it other than it being as such but your explanation has given me a far better understanding and appreciation. I have been Baptist all of my life but have never had more than a simple understanding for the Bible and our Doctrine...about a year ago I started to really dig deeper into scripture and what we believe as Baptists. After I was saved there wasn't any formal discipleship and I more or less developed my own theology based off of second hand knowledge and what I could pick up on my own...anyway off my soap box.

Back to the CoC, they believe though that baptism saves literally and not figuratively?

That is correct. They believe that in the act of baptism that a person is literally regenerated and their sins are literally remitted.

However, this is a fundemental misunderstanding of God's design for ALL outward ordinances and especially the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Acts 10:43 demonstrates that the same gospel was preached prior to the cross for remission of sins as is preached after the cross and this is confirmed by Hebrews 4:2.

Romans 4:6-11 puts forth PRE-circumcised Abraham as the example of justification by faith for "ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH" whether they lived prior to the cross as did Abraham or after the cross.

Paul explains that "justification" consists of two aspects that are absolutely necessary to satisfy God's righteous standards:

1. Imputed righteousness that satisfies God's standard of holiness - vv. 3-6
2. Remission of sins - vv. 7-8.

Justification understood thus was obtained by Abraham BEFORE and thus WITHOUT submission to external divine ordinances - vv. 9-11.

It is that PRE-circumcised Abraham that stands as the example for all who are of faith.

The gospel before the cross was progressive in revelation but always the good news of a coming Christ or Savior. The books of the Old Testament progressively revealed "HOW" he would come and what he would do and how he would die and that progressive revelation was fulfilled in the gospel accounts. The Post-resurrection gospel looks back at a fulfilled gospel in all of its details. Nevertheless, from Genesis to Revelation it has always included repentant faith in the Christ whether coming or have come as Savior from sin and its condemnation. - Acts 26:22-23.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Jereynolds,

So you believe that a person must be baptised in order to be saved? and those who are not baptised will suffer eternal punishment?

Again I am not willing to arbitrate on the status of Salvation Army, Quakers and other who are not baptised. Perhaps the statement of Jesus is partly relevant:
John 12:46-48 (KJV): 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Perhaps a few more quotations will reveal that both the baptism of John and the baptism practiced by Jesus and the Apostles were important. I do not find any Scripture to say that it is not necessary to be baptised, but all of the following indicate that baptism was the accepted practice.
Matthew 3:13-15 (KJV): 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Matthew 3:7-8 (KJV): 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Matthew 21:23-27 (KJV): 23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. 25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? 26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet. 27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.
Luke 7:29-30 (KJV): 29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Acts 8:5 (KJV): Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Acts 8:12 (KJV): But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

I am in sympathy with the 1525 Swiss Brethren, Brethren in Christ, Anabaptists in Europe, and the Campbellites, Disciples of Christ, Church of Christ in America who sought to restore Apostolic baptism of believers of the gospel. Nevertheless I do not endorse all that these have taught.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Yeshua1]

My wife's uncle is a pastor for the Church of Christ and this morning my wife asked what was the main difference between the CoC and Baptists. He replied by stating that the main difference is that the CoC believes that baptism is part of the plan of salvation or "you have to be baptized to be saved" is this actually the case? and if so where does he refrence this in scripture?

they believe that water baptism is a requirement as it proves one is really saved, as it fulfilled obedience to God, as per jesus to John when he was baptised!