Church Worship

[TCGreek]

We may not have complete descriptions of New Testament worship, but we do have references to the earliest Christians meeting in homes for prayer, exhortation, testimony, and the agape meal. Much can be intuited from Paul's letters, especially I Corinthians, about early Christian worship.

But there is also the letter of Pliny to Trajan, asking the emperor how he should handle this "sect", as he calls them, and he reports on his investigations by saying that they gather, they sing hymns, they pray, and they share in a meal. Sounds pretty simple to me! They would not have had the physical resources to mount an elaborate liturgy.

I have only limited exposure to Orthodox worship, but do acknowledge that it has the capacity to elicit from the worshipper that sense of the "mysterium tremendum et fascinans" that so much of evangelical worship ignores.

Very balance, I say.

 

[TCGreek]

Could that be why we call the Church (the physical building where we worship) the home of the Church family (those who worship under the name of the group of baptized believers)? There are Christians who still worship in homes but the size of most congregations makes this an impractical choice.



I think the verse implies they worshipped in the temple ALSO and not exclusively. The focus of the verse is they taught and preached Jesus and not the place where the teaching took place. If your theory is correct the ones who had access to the temple had a superior worship to those who did not.

Ac 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.



I believe you are right which is one problem with Orthodox worship. It is Judaism with Christ added. Jesus Himself said;

Mt 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

He is saying he wouldn’t put his new Christianity into the old “bottle” of Judaism. The new wine of the New Testament was put in a new bottle so that both the wine and the bottle would be preserved. A Priesthood or “bottle” made after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Notice his Priesthood is not after the order of Aaron or Moses. Jesus is King of the Jews not Priest of the Jews. He had much disagreement with what became of the old bottle of Judaism. This is evidenced by his many confrontations with the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes.



First, I didn’t say Orthodoxy Liturgy was wrong. I am saying there is no singular right way to worship except in spirit and in truth. However I will caution that your implications that the design of the building determines if worship is right or wrong is the primary reason Jn 4:24 is in the book.

Where do you see the scene from revelations played out in the Jewish Tradition? I don’t recall 24 Elders or Priest in the Old Testament but I could be wrong. If I am right, you are saying Orthodoxy Liturgy designed their edifice to emulate John's vision in revelations and not Judaism. Where is this scene in the Old Testament?



If I recall, Ex describes the place of worship and not the style or how to “right worship”. Even if it did say how (which I don’t believe it does) much would have been changed when the veil was rent from top to bottom.

I can only add my total endorsement. :thumbs:

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

For one of the earliest post-100AD records of what a church service was like see "Chapter LXVII.--Weekly worship of the Christians" from Justin Martyr's First Apology. Justin lived A.D. 110-165.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.txt

See also,

Chapter LXI.--Christian baptism.
Chapter LXV.--Administration of the sacraments.
Chapter LXVI.--Of the Eucharist.

CA

 

[LeBuick]

This is the basis of this thread...since the early Christians worshipped in the temple, could it be said that they took the best of the Jewish OT style of worship and made it into a Christian style, afterall that's how the Jews were taught to worship God (if that makes any sense).-

The "Church" spread to area's that were not natively Jewish so didn’t have Jewish Temples. Some areas had temples made from greek gods. Are you implying they all built Temples designed as described in Exodus and exactly as you worship in today?

Ex 26:15 And thou shalt make boards for the tabernacle of shittim wood standing up.
16 Ten cubits shall be the length of a board, and a cubit and a half shall be the breadth of one board.

This verse says the boards of the tabernacle should be made of shittim wood, ten cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. Are you implying all Divine Liturgy facilities are made of shittim wood in this manner?

 

[TCGreek]

The "Church" spread to area's that were not natively Jewish so didn’t have Jewish Temples. Some areas had temples made from greek gods. Are you implying they all built Temples designed as described in Exodus and exactly as you worship in today?

Ex 26:15 And thou shalt make boards for the tabernacle of shittim wood standing up.
16 Ten cubits shall be the length of a board, and a cubit and a half shall be the breadth of one board.

This verse says the boards of the tabernacle should be made of shittim wood, ten cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. Are you implying all Divine Liturgy facilities are made of shittim wood in this manner?

Solid questions, but I'm afraid they might be explained away.

 

[TCGreek]

Let's see we see Stephen stoned in Acts we also see Saul who later became Paul who was in fact persecuting Christians as recorded in Acts...specifically in Acts 8:1 ...great persecution against the Church...
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1. Was there a temple in Damascus where there was obviously a group of believers? How about over in Antioch of Syria?

2. It seems to me that their worship was simple and fits well what Pliny the younger reported to Trajan the emperor.

3. I see no room for elaborate liturgical expressions. And I say this out of respect for your type of worship.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The "Church" spread to area's that were not natively Jewish so didn’t have Jewish Temples. Some areas had temples made from greek gods. Are you implying they all built Temples designed as described in Exodus and exactly as you worship in today?

Ex 26:15 And thou shalt make boards for the tabernacle of shittim wood standing up.
16 Ten cubits shall be the length of a board, and a cubit and a half shall be the breadth of one board.

This verse says the boards of the tabernacle should be made of shittim wood, ten cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. Are you implying all Divine Liturgy facilities are made of shittim wood in this manner?

I’m not saying that the EC all build huge temples as that of the OT to worship God. We do know that God per Exodus 25:8 instructs Moses to build a sanctuary so He may dwell. Thereafter, God lays out the interior.

The Orthodox Church today is laid out as such recorded in Exodus 25-30. Are the tables and tabernacles to exact specifications as that recorded? I don’t know, but one thing for sure is that they are modeled after God’s instructions to Moses…some Orthodox Churches are indeed spectacular, and others are meager in size…

The Jews that were converted obviously didn’t throw the baby out with the bath water…they still knew the proper way to worship God as their forefathers did, only now there was no need to offer up a “bloody” sacrifice, worship style and content stayed the same…Much of Orthodox Divine Liturgy today includes the entire First Antiphon, which comes directly from the Book of Psalms and is the same as the priests of the OT era as they entered the temple.

Obviously many areas converted weren’t of Jewish heritage, but of paganism. Here the Apostles instructed bishops to oversee these Churches and in that regard passed on this worship style. I don’t think the Church compromised and adapted pagan worship to Christianity. Nor do I believe the Apostles watered down worship to be more adaptive to certain cultures, as we have recorded worship structure as CarpentersApprentice has posted.
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[Agnus_Dei]

I see no room for elaborate liturgical expressions. And I say this out of respect for your type of worship.

...and I take no offense, I was raised Baptist and never heard the word "liturgy" or what the term meant until I started a Methodist Church. But, just b/c you see no room for it doesn't mean it should be thrown out and not considered right worship... You picture depicts Martin Luther, what's his view of liturgical expressions?
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[LeBuick]

I’m not saying that the EC all build huge temples as that of the OT to worship God. We do know that God per Exodus 25:8 instructs Moses to build a sanctuary so He may dwell. Thereafter, God lays out the interior.-

This is my point, in OT times the presence of God dwelled in a certain place. In the tabernacle, on the mercy seat, behind the curtain in the Holy of Holies etc… The veil was rent in two and we no longer need a certain place for the presence of God to abound. Jesus promised he would be wherever two or three is gathered in His name touching and agreeing.

God is Spirit, we worship Him in Spirit and in truth… That is the building, the layout and the order of worship, in Spirit and in Truth. Anything beyond this is for Man and not for God.

We don’t need a special layout, edifice or symbolism to worship God. He can be worshipped alone in your car on the highway just as he can in a finely made Temple… At least my God can.

Just my observation, it appears you are worshipping the building or your closeness to Judaism instead of God. I’m not trying to offend, this is just my opinion.

 

[TCGreek]

...and I take no offense, I was raised Baptist and never heard the word "liturgy" or what the term meant until I started a Methodist Church. But, just b/c you see no room for it doesn't mean it should be thrown out and not considered right worship... You picture depicts Martin Luther, what's his view of liturgical expressions?
-

1. I respect your liturgical expressions, though I would not make them my own, for such is not necessary from the biblical data.

2. Yes, Luther was liturgical, but my admiration for him transcends his worship style. I admire him because of his courage to stand against Rome while standing the Holy Writ. That, my friend, is the extent of my admiration.

 

[TCGreek]

This is my point, in OT times the presence of God dwelled in a certain place. In the tabernacle, on the mercy seat, behind the curtain in the Holy of Holies etc… The veil was rent in two and we no longer need a certain place for the presence of God to abound. Jesus promised he would be wherever two or three is gathered in His name touching and agreeing.

God is Spirit, we worship Him in Spirit and in truth… That is the building, the layout and the order of worship, in Spirit and in Truth. Anything beyond this is for Man and not for God.

We don’t need a special layout, edifice or symbolism to worship God. He can be worshipped alone in your car on the highway just as he can in a finely made Temple… At least my God can.

Just my observation, it appears you are worshipping the building or your closeness to Judaism instead of God. I’m not trying to offend, this is just my opinion.

And if I may add, Paul says that our bodies are the temple [lit. sanctuary, Greek naos as opposed to hieron]] of the Holy Spirit. The Shekinah glory of God dwells in our mortal bodies by the Spirit of God (1Cor 6:19).

 

[Link]

The most common Greek word for 'worship' in the New Testament means to prostrate. Interesting, the Bible never tells us that Christians are to gather to worship (prostrate.)

What does the Bible teach us about church gatherings? Does it say that we must have a liturgical order similar to the temple. No. Does it say that we are supposed to sing three songs, hear a preacher preacher, take up the offering have communion (once a week or once a month) sing three more songs, pray and then go home? No.

The Bible does talk about coming together to break bread. The early church ate a supper together to remember the Lord. We also see in scripture that when the church comes together, the believers are supposed to use their gifts to edify the body. Believers should take turns singing songs, teaching, sharing revelations, giving messages in tongues and intepretations in an orderly manner. All may prophesy in a church meeting.