Churches of Christ...Continued

[bmerr]

Your argument is non sequitor. Your rebuttal is like a red herring.
It is totally non-sensical. You have failed to take the passage in its context.

DHK,

bmerr here. I wasn't trying to make an argument one way or the other. I was just bringing information to the attention of the readers. I just thought it interesting that it was the decendants of Cain who were known for inventing musical instruments. That doesn't prove anything by itself, nor did I think it would.

Genesis 4:19-22 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

One thing that can be noticed about Lamech is that he departed from God's pattern for marriage (one man + one woman) by taking two wives.

First remember that the sins of the Father are not passed on to the children.

That is correct. Calvinists take note. (Eze 18:19-22) Children may, however, adopt patterns of behavior similar to their parents.

If musicians are wrong, according to your logic, then condemn all the farmers and smiths as well! Good logic Bmerr!

Have I said "musicians are wrong"? No. Instrumental music is not evil or sinful in and of itself. It's just not authorized in NT worship. You read WAY too much into what is written sometimes.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Charles Meadows]

Bmerr,

Regarding the instruments...

You have often said that instrumental music is "not authorized" in NT worship.

Just what do you really mean by that?

I'll ask more pointedly - do you assert that instrumental music in worship is sin? Do you assert that those who practice it are in danger of hell because of it?

Why ask?

If you as a believer assert that instrumental music is not proper then we would all respect your attempts to be authentic in worship.

If you go as far as to say that those who participate in instrumental worship are not truly part of Christ's church then we would quite reasonably view you as one who denied that Jesus' death was sufficient.

 

[bmerr]

Referring to Eric B's previous post:

Bmerr: You seem to assume that those of us who do not bind where Scripture does not bind in musical instruments do so because we want musical instruments. As Eric B and I have pointed out, we can take or leave instruments -- in fact, I would just prefer not to have them.

Darron,

bmerr here. The problem is that the Scriptures do bind on this issue. Silence forbids. What did Christ command His apostles in the latter part of the Great Commission?

Matt 28:20 - Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world.

If Christ had wanted to allow things He didn't command, he could have said, "Teaching them to observe all things I have not explicitly prohibited..." But that's not what is written, is it.

Singing is commanded. Playing instruments is not.

Are you motivated by preference in your teaching like you seem to assume that we are?

I am motivated by love for Christ, His church, and my fellow man. Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth (Gal 4:16):?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[DHK]

Have I said "musicians are wrong"? No. Instrumental music is not evil or sinful in and of itself. It's just not authorized in NT worship. You read WAY too much into what is written sometimes.

In Christ,

bmerr

I sing (along with our congregation) when accompanied with the words from the overhead projector. But alas! The use of the overhead projector is not authorized in NT worship!!! I am doomed! I am doomed! What shall I do now??
DHK

 

[Darron Steele]

Darron,

bmerr here. The problem is that the Scriptures do bind on this issue. Silence forbids.

WHERE?

What did Christ command His apostles in the latter part of the Great Commission?

Matt 28:20 - Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even to the end of the world.

If Christ had wanted to allow things He didn't command, he could have said, "Teaching them to observe all things I have not explicitly prohibited..." But that's not what is written, is it.

You are going beyond what is written here. Doing what Christ commanded is to be our priority. It does not add "and teaching them to avoid doing a single thing I will not be recorded having said a word about."

By the way, using Matthew 28:19-20 is a bad idea to support your point. Jesus never commanded the church to take a collection: Paul did at 1 Corinthians 16:1-2. Unless you are prepared to drop the collection, and I would not be, Matthew 28:19-20 is a bad passage for your point.

 

[Darron Steele]

One thing I have noticed is that the hard-line Church of Christ posters here like to focus on what is written. This has been common elsewhere also. It has been my observation in and out of the electronic world that they have a difficult enough time doing well with the basics of what is written.

 

[Darron Steele]

I want to draw us all back to Hebrews 5:14 and the passage to follow. At Hebrews 5:14 the author, in my judgment most likely Barnabas, indicates that "solid food" (ESV) is for "the mature" (ESV) who can "distinguish good from evil" (ESV).

Hebrews 6:1 goes on "Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God" (ESV) before "instruction about washings" (ESV). The first of the "elementary" principles was of "repentance from dead works" = `turning away from bad deeds.' This is the most basic.

According to Matthew, "fruit" was most closely associated with what we do, not what we believe. John the Baptist preached at Matthew 3:8-10:
"Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance: and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire" (ASV).

The explanation of this is in Luke 3:10-4:
"And the multitudes asked him, saying, What then must we do? And he answered and said unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath food, let him do likewise. And there came also publicans to be baptized, and they said unto him, Teacher, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort no more than that which is appointed you. And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse any one wrongfully; and be content with your wages" (ASV).
These fruits are about how to treat other people in non-religious contexts.

The Gospel of Matthew records that Jesus thinks similarly of "fruit." Here in fact is how He built on John's teachings at Matthew 7:17-21:
"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven" (ASV).
We recognize who is a good Christian by what s/he DOES first. 1 John 2:3 "And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments" (ASV) "keep" = "obey" (ICB) -- everything, which includes in and out of church walls and during other parts of the week besides meeting time.

Jesus gave two great commands at Matthew 22:37-9. The first is to love God and serve Him. The second is to love "thy neighbor" -- not `Christian sibling.' He gave us positive versions of the Golden Rule at Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31. Jesus condemned an organization of His earthly time that observed strictly religious practice but left aside "weightier matters" Matthew 23:23 (ASV) like following His Golden Rule with "be fair to other people" Luke 11:42 (ICB) -- never mind that Jesus indicates this type of `righteousness' will exclude its holders from Heaven. In my Bibles I read such passages as James 3:17-8, Galatians 5:22-3, and Ephesians 5:8-9. These fruits generate attitudes that lead to good deeds. When I see people eagerly speak badly of the devoutness and good character of people who sacrifice to serve the Lord, I wonder, and wonder even more when what is said is not necessary. When I see people deliberately misrepresent others or lie about them because they are `non-Christian,' I wonder. When I see a church willing to encourage acting on grudges contrary to what is explicitly written, but will chastise a church having an ice cream social on a matter Scripture is silent about, I wonder.

To me, if a church full of people does these types of things to such degrees, it has missed the "elementary" principles. I will not pay much if any positive attention to its teachings on baptism, church administration, church relations, worship activity, obscure and technical points of doctrine, what is true and false doctrine, etc., because by and large it is not qualified to address these things.

It is sort of like a second grader who wants to talk about learning multiplication but does not do well with addition facts. Because multiplication is repeated addition, my thinking is "First learn your addition facts -- we will talk about that in third grade." Memorizing multiplication tables will not make the child a good multiplier if s/he has not reached competence adding.

 

[Darron Steele]

Recall that the "elementary principles" (NKJV) of Hebrews 6:1 had first in "foundation" (NKJV) "repentance from dead works" (NKJV).

Galatians 5:20 "causing divisions among people" (ICB) among "deeds of the flesh" (NASB) of Galatians 5:19-21. Churches of Christ typically demand that their members not even acknowledge `denomination members' as Christians in any way. There are multiple words used in the Greek New Testament for "division" and the strongest is not used at 1 Corinthians 1; the strongest word is used at Romans 16:17 where the sinners are those who cause "standing apart" per Vine's Expository Dictionary. The Churches of Christ are very guilty of this -- in many cases, their members are forbidden to even attend family functions at "denominational churches." Any good deed Christ would want us to do is to be avoided if `denominational churches' are involved -- it is divide before do good.

Dishonesty is more prevalent in the Churches of Christ than in other church circles I have been in. Grover Stevens's tract Why I Left The Baptist Church has a number of untrue statements in it, such as
"A denominational preacher will preach for an hour and `wind up" by saying that it doesn't matter whether you believe what he has been preaching or not."
"Baptists Support A Democracy, Not A Kingdom"
This slanderous tract is available online at
http://www.thebiblespeaks.com/Articles/FalseTeachings/Denominationalism/Baptist.htm
Printed versions of this slanderous tract are widely distributed in hard-line Church of Christ congregations -- I used to have a printed copy in my possession, and probably still do but the location is unknown.
At www.preachersfiles.com I posted as a Church of Christ attender.
http://www.preachersfiles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4343
I was handled quite dishonestly. I was rebuked with a passage he refused to cite but identified knowing I would find it -- when I tried to log in after having found the passage and wanted to correct the way it was being abused, found my account had been blocked. After the thread at "preachersfiles.com/forum/" was locked, one more post was allowed by someone with a host of inaccurate information, addressed elsewhere at http://makephpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=18006&highlight=&mforum=members#18006 -- and on that "preachersfiles.com/forum" thread a challenge to reply, on a thread locked two days earlier, hence an impossibility. Later, another thread was forged in my name after my account had been blocked. This is certainly dishonest, and that site is run by a hard-line Church of Christ preacher.

On that same hard-line Church of Christ forum, you will notice just how much mean-spiritedness is happens and is condoned toward `non-Christians.'

I was in a congregation for eight months that taught that acting on grudges was okay as long as you did not do anything to hurt the grudgee. The same church chastised others for having ice cream socials.

The hard-line Churches of Christ have enough trouble with the basics of what IS written before they address what is not written. They are far worse in these basics than most `denominational people.' Doctrine is the least of the hard-line Churches of Christ congregations' problems.

 

[MorganT]

I have a question for all you Church of Chirst and just think I actually use to be one of you from birth to age 22 when I started reading the bible and seeing just how you folks twist the word of God. If baptism is SO important to salvation why did Paul say in 1 Cor 1:17 that he did not come to baptize

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If batizm saves and without it you are not saved as the CoC say then why did Paul make it a point to say that he was not sent to baptize.

 

[Darron Steele]

... If baptism is SO important to salvation why did Paul say in 1 Cor 1:17 that he did not come to baptize

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If batizm saves and without it you are not saved as the CoC say then why did Paul make it a point to say that he was not sent to baptize.

I attend a Church of Christ, but at the chagrin of the preaching elder, I am with you on this. Let me expand on your point:

I Corinthians 9:22b-23 records Paul writing “I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. | And I do all things for the gospel’s sake, that I may be a joint partaker thereof” (TNIV|ASV). Paul wanted to do anything right to get people salvation. However, at I Corinthians 1:14 he writes “I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except” (TNIV) a few people, and at 1:17a he writes “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (ASV). It follows that if Paul wanted “by all possible means” to “save,” yet saw no need to baptize, then baptism must not have been part of the means for people to be saved.

Despite the fact that Paul was not sent by Jesus Christ to baptize per I Corinthians 1:17, Paul did write this to the same audience at I Corinthians 3:5-6: “What then is Apollos? and what is Paul? Ministers through whom ye believed; and each as the Lord gave to him. I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase” (ASV). Paul takes credit for planting the seeds of salvation, yet baptized only a few of the Corinthian Christians. Obviously, Paul did not consider the act of
baptism to be part of the means of attaining salvation.

 

[mactx]

One thing I have noticed is that the hard-line Church of Christ posters here like to focus on what is written. This has been common elsewhere also. It has been my observation in and out of the electronic world that they have a difficult enough time doing well with the basics of what is written.

Yes, we focus on what we have been given, and not what we think His silence might allow.
Not all CoChrist folks are the same, there are many different "sects" The one I grew up in forbade churches to have kitchens, because of the admonition that church is not the time to eat and drink. (1 Corinthians 11:17-22 17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. 20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21 for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22 Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not! )
which i think addresses the pb on the communion wafers thing.
As for this by Morgan T:

I have a question for all you Church of Christ and just think I actually use to be one of you from birth to age 22 when I started reading the bible and seeing just how you folks twist the word of God. If baptism is SO important to salvation why did Paul say in 1 Cor 1:17 that he did not come to baptize

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If batizm saves and without it you are not saved as the CoC say then why did Paul make it a point to say that he was not sent to baptize.

Baptism does NOT save, No place here has any coChrist member asserted that it does, it is just one of the steps God gives us on the road to salvation. Grace is free. So is water, but to be able to use water in your home you have to follow the steps in your area. So far no one has shown the verse that says it isn't needed, only verses that show Faith and Grace are needed. Paul was a preacher, he never went anywhere with out his helpers, such as Silas, Barnabas, Luke, Aquila and his wife Prisca just to name the most well known. Paul preached, as Jesus did, others did the Baptizing. This is not unusual, i was not baptized by a preacher, but a deacon. Had Paul been one on one with some one he would have, and did baptize them. He says so in the left out section.
The whole together section says:
1Cor 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty

My point is this, just reading it through is enough, we do not need special powers to discern it, it means what it says and says what it means. The coChrist refuses to add to it by deciding they can read God's mind in His silence, or cut something out because it is inconvenient, or because they think it is silly. They also don't say, well since it says it here but is not given in every instance this part must be false.
Is the coChrist perfect? Nope, I have my difficulty with their ideas of what can be left out myself, but not one religion is. If there was a perfect religion, grace would not be needed. Faith is perfect, and Faith comes by hearing the word of God, not the word of we suppose perhaps He meant... but he doesn't say specifically, so we will do it this way.​

 

[Darron Steele]

My MISTAKE: I meant that Church of Christ posters here like to focus on what is NOT WRITTEN.

I believe that this is evident from the three-post posting this was extracted from July 18, 2006, 05:31 PM, and suspect that the above poster exploited my typing error.

Let me try again:
One thing I have noticed is that the hard-line Church of Christ posters here like to focus on what is NOT written -- such as musical instruments. This has been common elsewhere also.

It has been my observation in and out of the electronic world that they have a difficult enough time doing well with the basics of what IS explicitly written.

More to follow in the next two posts.

 

[Darron Steele]

I want to draw us all back to Hebrews 5:14 and the passage to follow. At Hebrews 5:14 the author, in my judgment most likely Barnabas, indicates that "solid food" (ESV) is for "the mature" (ESV) who can "distinguish good from evil" (ESV).

Hebrews 6:1 goes on "Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God" (ESV) before "instruction about washings" (ESV). The first of the "elementary" principles was of "repentance from dead works" = `turning away from bad deeds.' This is the most basic.

According to Matthew, "fruit" was most closely associated with what we do, not what we believe. John the Baptist preached at Matthew 3:8-10:
"Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance: and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire" (ASV).

The explanation of this is in Luke 3:10-4:
"And the multitudes asked him, saying, What then must we do? And he answered and said unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath food, let him do likewise. And there came also publicans to be baptized, and they said unto him, Teacher, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort no more than that which is appointed you. And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse any one wrongfully; and be content with your wages" (ASV).
These fruits are about how to treat other people in non-religious contexts.

The Gospel of Matthew records that Jesus thinks similarly of "fruit." Here in fact is how He built on John's teachings at Matthew 7:17-21:
"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven" (ASV).
We recognize who is a good Christian by what s/he DOES first. 1 John 2:3 "And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments" (ASV) "keep" = "obey" (ICB) -- everything, which includes in and out of church walls and during other parts of the week besides meeting time.

Jesus gave two great commands at Matthew 22:37-9. The first is to love God and serve Him. The second is to love "thy neighbor" -- not `Christian sibling.' He gave us positive versions of the Golden Rule at Matthew 7:12 and Luke 6:31. Jesus condemned an organization of His earthly time that observed strictly religious practice but left aside "weightier matters" Matthew 23:23 (ASV) like following His Golden Rule with "be fair to other people" Luke 11:42 (ICB) -- never mind that Jesus indicates this type of `righteousness' will exclude its holders from Heaven. In my Bibles I read such passages as James 3:17-8, Galatians 5:22-3, and Ephesians 5:8-9. These fruits generate attitudes that lead to good deeds. When I see people eagerly speak badly of the devoutness and good character of people who sacrifice to serve the Lord, I wonder, and wonder even more when what is said is not necessary. When I see people deliberately misrepresent others or lie about them because they are `non-Christian,' I wonder. When I see a church willing to encourage acting on grudges contrary to what is explicitly written, but will chastise a church having an ice cream social on a matter Scripture is silent about, I wonder.

To me, if a church full of people does these types of things to such degrees, it has missed the "elementary" principles. I will not pay much if any positive attention to its teachings on baptism, church administration, church relations, worship activity, obscure and technical points of doctrine, what is true and false doctrine, etc., because by and large it is not qualified to address these things.

It is sort of like a second grader who wants to talk about learning multiplication but does not do well with addition facts. Because multiplication is repeated addition, my thinking is "First learn your addition facts -- we will talk about that in third grade." Memorizing multiplication tables will not make the child a good multiplier if s/he has not reached competence adding.

 

[Darron Steele]

Recall that the "elementary principles" (NKJV) of Hebrews 6:1 had first in "foundation" (NKJV) "repentance from dead works" (NKJV).

Galatians 5:20 "causing divisions among people" (ICB) among "deeds of the flesh" (NASB) of Galatians 5:19-21. Churches of Christ typically demand that their members not even acknowledge `denomination members' as Christians in any way. There are multiple words used in the Greek New Testament for "division" and the strongest is not used at 1 Corinthians 1; the strongest word is used at Romans 16:17 where the sinners are those who cause "standing apart" per Vine's Expository Dictionary. The Churches of Christ are very guilty of this -- in many cases, their members are forbidden to even attend family functions at "denominational churches." Any good deed Christ would want us to do is to be avoided if `denominational churches' are involved -- it is divide before do good.

Dishonesty is more prevalent in the Churches of Christ than in other church circles I have been in. Grover Stevens's tract Why I Left The Baptist Church has a number of untrue statements in it, such as
"A denominational preacher will preach for an hour and `wind up" by saying that it doesn't matter whether you believe what he has been preaching or not."
"Baptists Support A Democracy, Not A Kingdom"
This slanderous tract is available online at
http://www.thebiblespeaks.com/Articles/FalseTeachings/Denominationalism/Baptist.htm
Printed versions of this slanderous tract are widely distributed in hard-line Church of Christ congregations -- I used to have a printed copy in my possession, and probably still do but the location is unknown.
At www.preachersfiles.com I posted as a Church of Christ attender.
http://www.preachersfiles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4343
I was handled quite dishonestly. I was rebuked with a passage he refused to cite but identified knowing I would find it -- when I tried to log in after having found the passage and wanted to correct the way it was being abused, found my account had been blocked. After the thread at "preachersfiles.com/forum/" was locked, one more post was allowed by someone with a host of inaccurate information, addressed elsewhere at http://makephpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=18006&highlight=&mforum=members#18006 -- and on that "preachersfiles.com/forum" thread a challenge to reply, on a thread locked two days earlier, hence an impossibility. Later, another thread was forged in my name after my account had been blocked. This is certainly dishonest, and that site is run by a hard-line Church of Christ preacher.

On that same hard-line Church of Christ forum, you will notice just how much mean-spiritedness is happens and is condoned toward `non-Christians.'

I was in a congregation for eight months that taught that acting on grudges was okay as long as you did not do anything to hurt the grudgee. The same church chastised others for having ice cream socials.

The hard-line Churches of Christ have enough trouble with the basics of what IS written before they address what is not written. They are far worse in these basics than most `denominational people.' Doctrine is the least of the hard-line Churches of Christ congregations' problems.

They seem to see themselves as almost completely unaccountable to these basics because of their doctrine. They seem to believe that their doctrine enables them to trivialize or disregard these "elementary principles." I believe that this is the most serious problem in the hard-line Churches of Christ and is a far more severe problem than any problem present in most other Christian denominations.

 

[mactx]

Recall that the "elementary principles" (NKJV) of Hebrews 6:1 had first in "foundation" (NKJV) "repentance from dead works" (NKJV).

Galatians 5:20 "causing divisions among people" (ICB) among "deeds of the flesh" (NASB) of Galatians 5:19-21. Churches of Christ typically demand that their members not even acknowledge `denomination members' as Christians in any way. There are multiple words used in the Greek New Testament for "division" and the strongest is not used at 1 Corinthians 1; the strongest word is used at Romans 16:17 where the sinners are those who cause "standing apart" per Vine's Expository Dictionary. The Churches of Christ are very guilty of this -- in many cases, their members are forbidden to even attend family functions at "denominational churches." Any good deed Christ would want us to do is to be avoided if `denominational churches' are involved -- it is divide before do good.

Dishonesty is more prevalent in the Churches of Christ than in other church circles I have been in. Grover Stevens's tract Why I Left The Baptist Church has a number of untrue statements in it, such as
"A denominational preacher will preach for an hour and `wind up" by saying that it doesn't matter whether you believe what he has been preaching or not."
"Baptists Support A Democracy, Not A Kingdom"
This slanderous tract is available online at
http://www.thebiblespeaks.com/Articles/FalseTeachings/Denominationalism/Baptist.htm
Printed versions of this slanderous tract are widely distributed in hard-line Church of Christ congregations -- I used to have a printed copy in my possession, and probably still do but the location is unknown.
At www.preachersfiles.com I posted as a Church of Christ attender.
http://www.preachersfiles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4343
I was handled quite dishonestly. I was rebuked with a passage he refused to cite but identified knowing I would find it -- when I tried to log in after having found the passage and wanted to correct the way it was being abused, found my account had been blocked. After the thread at "preachersfiles.com/forum/" was locked, one more post was allowed by someone with a host of inaccurate information, addressed elsewhere at http://makephpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=18006&highlight=&mforum=members#18006 -- and on that "preachersfiles.com/forum" thread a challenge to reply, on a thread locked two days earlier, hence an impossibility. Later, another thread was forged in my name after my account had been blocked. This is certainly dishonest, and that site is run by a hard-line Church of Christ preacher.

On that same hard-line Church of Christ forum, you will notice just how much mean-spiritedness is happens and is condoned toward `non-Christians.'

I was in a congregation for eight months that taught that acting on grudges was okay as long as you did not do anything to hurt the grudgee. The same church chastised others for having ice cream socials.

The hard-line Churches of Christ have enough trouble with the basics of what IS written before they address what is not written. They are far worse in these basics than most `denominational people.' Doctrine is the least of the hard-line Churches of Christ congregations' problems.

They seem to see themselves as almost completely unaccountable to these basics because of their doctrine. They seem to believe that their doctrine enables them to trivialize or disregard these "elementary principles." I believe that this is the most serious problem in the hard-line Churches of Christ and is a far more severe problem than any problem present in most other Christian denominations.

Darron, i am sorry your were treated this way. It is NOT right, and it my biggest peeve with the coChrist "sect" i was raised in, we are saved all others take the nearest exit to hell.
However, not all of us that attend the coChrist are like this. i was condemned similarly by a baptist preacher because on a MB I ran i would not allow excerpts of his preaching to be used as gospel. Its not just the coChrist that have these folks. Nastiness is found in all religions, which is why I now profess none. I prefer mostly the coChrist, but my views are narrower than theirs in some areas and wider in others, for example, I take 1 Corinthians 11 in its whole literally, most do not.
I take God's admonition that women are to treat their husbands as Sarah treated Abraham, literally, most do not. There are many who try to take this or that from the Bible and build a doctrine out of it. After all, the "scholars" say, but 1 Cor 1 clearly points out that the Bible is not for the scholar, the world's view of logical or smart. It is for the searching, needy person willing to read and say, God you say do this, so here I am doing this to the best of my ability.
I want to be THAT kind of person, and THAT kind of person can be found in almost any religion, regardless of the name above the door. God wants those of us who are willing to forget what we want, and do what He wants. The only person I will answer for in judgement is me, when God says, I had it written do this, I do not want to say, well yes but...

 

[Darron Steele]

I am presently attending a Church of Christ as well. There is a small but growing portion of good congregations among them.

Every denomination has these types of people. However, among all of the denominations, it is by far most pervasive and most approved in the Churches of Christ.

What is NOT written seems to be what most Church of Christ people want to think or talk about. Until the disproportionate amount of `dirty laundry' is taken care of in regards to the basics of what IS written, they are not qualified to revile everyone else on what is NOT written.

 

[mactx]

I am presently attending a Church of Christ as well. There is a small but growing portion of good congregations among them.

Every denomination has these types of people. However, among all of the denominations, it is by far most pervasive and most approved in the Churches of Christ.

What is NOT written seems to be what most Church of Christ people want to think or talk about. Until the disproportionate amount of `dirty laundry' is taken care of in regards to the basics of what IS written, they are not qualified to revile everyone else on what is NOT written.

I agree to a point, as I said not everyone in these types of congregations agrees with their ideas, or tactics. i didn't. Of course I also do not hold with the more liberal huge churches either. I AM more concerned with what IS written, because what IS written tells me what i need to know, while if something is not written, I am just assuming it is ok. However, NOTHING gives me permission to be rude or nasty to one who does not believe as i do.
The links you provided give me lots to study, more than I can do right this minute. Thank you for providing them though.
I remember a Connie Stevens preaching as a kid, he did yearly meetings in the church i grew up in, and i remember all us teens loved him, he had a way with young people!

 

[MorganT]

If the men of the Church of Christ spent as much time focusing on people that have not heard the word of God as they do trying to explain there man made misinterprited laws maybe they could save some souls instead of blabbering and making excuses and trying to defend how they interprit the bible. I see all these post on this board made by Church of Christ people trying to jab it on a baptist board. My thoughts are that maybe the people of the denomination Church of Christ might have there on board and not try to cause confusion. If I was a non christian and I saw all this bickering and no one agreeing on anything I would think real hard about becoming a christian. What do you hope to gain by confusing a new christian or someone curious that stubles upon this board. I think you should REPENT and ask GOD to forgive you. How many souls have you RAN off that might have been wanting to hear GODS word. Think about that:Fish:

 

[bmerr]

WHERE?

Darron,

bmerr here. Apologies for the late reply. I completely missed this one.

Where does the Bible teach that silence forbids? I don't guess you'll find it written, "Thus saith the LORD, Silence forbids". But by implication, we learn that the silence of the Scriptures forbids.

For instance, Heb 7:14 tells us that Moses did not speak of the tribe of Judah in reference to the priesthood. This fact prevented Jesus from being a priest under the Mosaic Law. The Bible is silent about whether or not one from the tribe of Judah could be a priest, thus, those from the tribe of Judah were not authorized to serve as priests.

Or, we could look at Noah, who was not told anything concerning pine. Thus, pine was not authorized for use in the construction of Noah's ark. Nothing that was not gopher wood was authorized.

In the context of our current discussion, nothing that is not singing is authorized as music in NT worship.

You are going beyond what is written here. Doing what Christ commanded is to be our priority. It does not add "and teaching them to avoid doing a single thing I will not be recorded having said a word about."

Why would He have to say that? He said enough by commanding to teach to observe all things whatsoever He had commanded.

When you go to the men's room, do you walk into the ladies room, and say, when objected to, "The door didn't say, 'Men are not allowed in here'"? Of course not! Nor do you expect to see a woman in the men's room, even though the door does not say, "Women are not allowed in here". The sign on the door simply indicates what persons, male or female, are allowed in the respective rest room.

By the way, using Matthew 28:19-20 is a bad idea to support your point. Jesus never commanded the church to take a collection: Paul did at 1 Corinthians 16:1-2. Unless you are prepared to drop the collection, and I would not be, Matthew 28:19-20 is a bad passage for your point.

Correction, sir. Jesus did command the church to take up a collection. he commanded it through Paul. It was the Holy Spirit Who would tell the apostles what to say and write.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all thihngs, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26).

"I have many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you" (John 16:12-15)

Whatever the apostles taught came from the Father, to the Son, to the Holy Spirit, to the apostles, to the original autographs, to the copies of the originals, and eventually, to the pages of our Bibles.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Darron Steele]

Darron,

bmerr here. Apologies for the late reply. I completely missed this one.

Where does the Bible teach that silence forbids? I don't guess you'll find it written, "Thus saith the LORD, Silence forbids". But by implication, we learn that the silence of the Scriptures forbids.

For instance, Heb 7:14 tells us that Moses did not speak of the tribe of Judah in reference to the priesthood. This fact prevented Jesus from being a priest under the Mosaic Law. The Bible is silent about whether or not one from the tribe of Judah could be a priest, thus, those from the tribe of Judah were not authorized to serve as priests.

Or, we could look at Noah, who was not told anything concerning pine. Thus, pine was not authorized for use in the construction of Noah's ark. Nothing that was not gopher wood was authorized.

In Hebrews 7, the silence of the Scriptures is used to teach a doctrine -- that Jesus would be a priest of a different order. This is how the whole thing was arranged beforehand. However, I do not see a forbiddence of the sovereign Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus was not commanded not to be any type of priest. You are going beyond what is written here.

As for the Noah situation: he was directed to use gopher wood. Had he mixed any other type of wood that would have made the ark made of anything besides 100% gopher wood, he would have disobeyed a direct command.

Singing is still 100% singing whether there is an instrumental accompaniment or not.