Churches of Christ...Continued

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Is it yours, Eric B?

 

[Eric B]

We try to be A true church, not claim to be THE true Church, and this is what all churches should strive for.

 

[Darron Steele]

Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be condemned" - What is the obvious conclusion to this passage? You might think it is a forgery based on 2 manuscripts.

No -- the evidence is much more extensive. I have listed it repeatedly.

When we look at scripture, this is what we find. I agree that the scriptures are ALL SUFFICIENT!!!

So do I. I just do diligence to learn its ancient communications and see what I can learn from the New Testament churches' text itself when I want precision -- things you seem to scorn doing.

 

[Darron Steele]

Let me add this.

Regarding the lexicon writer you cited, it is a brief quote of a personal letter. I do not know how many hands it has been through to get to me. I do not consider it more weighty than the following:

1) A published Greek reference work which has been printed by its publisher for over a decade and in multiple editions because of being well regarded -- the book by Zodhiates that I cited page number to earlier,
2) The translators of Greek into Spanish and Portuguese over the centuries who have repeatedly and overwhelmingly translated the two mandates of Acts 2:38 with two different verb tenses with two different forces -- repentance being stronger.

BTW: I am aware that in the Churches of Christ it is a common mentality that foreign translations are less the Bible than English translations. However, it is "beyond what is written" to believe that one language's translations are a priori more the Word of God than another.

The lexicon writer you quoted is very competent: his work is highly regarded by qualified scholars. However, by reading these quotes, I am not sure it addresses our question, or if it is a complete representation of his answer to whatever question. Also, there is a concern about the nature of this evidence: a who-knows-how-many hand quote against the type of evidence I gave above seems like placing on a scale a feather against a bowling ball.

 

[Darron Steele]

I have also noticed in the Churches of Christ a predominant emphasis on baptism. Sermons on salvation focus on baptism. Posts here by most Church of Christ people are dead set on `teaching' us about baptism and putting up verses about baptism or believed to be about baptism.

Here is one thing that bothers me about this: there is little discussion on their part about faith. Acts and the New Testament epistles mention faith/belief in salvation multiple times more than they mention baptism in any context.

One would think that in light of this, there would be more of an effort to balance the passages that teach salvation by faith and the passages about baptism. It just seems like in posting verses, the baptism verses are supposed to be most heavily in our thought -- little esteem of the faith/belief passages occurs. Little to no thought is made of how the passages about baptism and about faith/belief go together or how baptism and belief/faith relate to each other.

As far as actually talking about salvation, one would think that the approved example of Scripture would be followed: that faith/belief would be discussed more in salvation teaching and talk than baptism. This is not what happens. Scripture's example is not followed in this.

 

[mman]

I have also noticed in the Churches of Christ a predominant emphasis on baptism. Sermons on salvation focus on baptism. Posts here by most Church of Christ people are dead set on `teaching' us about baptism and putting up verses about baptism or believed to be about baptism.

Here is one thing that bothers me about this: there is little discussion on their part about faith. Acts and the New Testament epistles mention faith/belief in salvation multiple times more than they mention baptism in any context.

One would think that in light of this, there would be more of an effort to balance the passages that teach salvation by faith and the passages about baptism. It just seems like in posting verses, the baptism verses are supposed to be most heavily in our thought -- little esteem of the faith/belief passages occurs. Little to no thought is made of how the passages about baptism and about faith/belief go together or how baptism and belief/faith relate to each other.

As far as actually talking about salvation, one would think that the approved example of Scripture would be followed: that faith/belief would be discussed more in salvation teaching and talk than baptism. This is not what happens. Scripture's example is not followed in this.

Baptism is an act of faith. We are raised through faith (Col 2:12).

I know there are exceptions, but for the most part:
Everyone agrees on the importance of faith.
Everyone agrees on the importance of repentance
Everyone agrees on the importance of confession

However, not everyone agrees on the role of baptism.

Let's say we all agreed on the role baptism yet there was a big division on the importance of repentance.

I would be just as strong to defend the importance of repentance as I do with baptism now.

From this, I know that some may incorrectly think that I place more importance on baptism than I do on every other thing that is said to be necessary for salvation. That is unfortunate. It's just that we agree for the most part on everything else.

With that said, the passages dealing with baptism have no more or less weight than those dealing with belief or repentance. The baptism passages are in no way mitigated or made void by the other passages, however, they are in complete and perfect harmony.

It's just that many are forced to negate or twist the passages dealing with baptism in order to make it all fit their theology. I know they accuse me of doing the same.

So how can "for by grace are you saved through faith, at that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast" dwell in harmony with "baptism now saves us"?

My answer is that baptism does not earn us anything, it is not a work of merit. If it were, God would be obligated to "save" everyone who has been submerged beneath the water after this statement was made. No, baptism is an act of faith. I do it because God said so. I don't understand it all or see how that has anything to do with the washing away of my sins, putting me into Christ, or connecting me to the death of Jesus where his blood flowed, however, I submit to it in faith.

Paul put is best when he by inspiration said, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27

 

[Darron Steele]

Baptism is an act of faith. We are raised through faith (Col 2:12).

I know there are exceptions, but for the most part:
Everyone agrees on the importance of faith.
Everyone agrees on the importance of repentance
Everyone agrees on the importance of confession

However, not everyone agrees on the role of baptism.

Many non-Christians who come to church do not know the importance of ANY of them. The Churches of Christ's predominance of time on baptism in salvation messages is against Scripture's approved example, and there is a reason why Scripture does as it does. Salvation by faith/belief, of which repentance is part, is mentioned more than confession in any context, as is the case with baptism. Stepping outside the New Testament pattern on this has negative consequences regardless of opinions on a need to emphasize any one act of this.

Even after being dragged to two moderate Church of Christ congregations as an atheist by parents for two years, I never learned anything besides baptism; I learned nothing of belief/faith + repentance. I learned about all of these in a pastor's study in a Baptist church when a youth pastor went over the Word of God with me about salvation.

From this, I know that some may incorrectly think that I place more importance on baptism than I do on every other thing that is said to be necessary for salvation. That is unfortunate. It's just that we agree for the most part on everything else.

With that said, the passages dealing with baptism have no more or less weight than those dealing with belief or repentance. The baptism passages are in no way mitigated or made void by the other passages, however, they are in complete and perfect harmony.

You fail to show how. You just seem to want to contradict. In fall of 1998 when I decided to take seriously both Church of Christ salvation doctrine and Baptist salvation doctrine and create a picture from the passages centered on by both, it was I who had to study how they worked together.

Church of Christ messages on baptism create apparent contradictions. "Salvation by faith" and "not of works" is contradictory to `salvation only after you do this, that, or the other.'

So how can "for by grace are you saved through faith, at that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast" dwell in harmony with "baptism now saves us"?

by reading the rest of the second passage you quoted: 1 Peter 3:21b "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience" (NASB).

My answer is that baptism does not earn us anything, it is not a work of merit.

Scripture says "not of works" and that does not say "not of non-meritorious works." It says "not of works."

"Work of faith" is still a work. As the Churches of Christ commonly define this, it is basically a work that makes faith into faith only when completed. In other words, "faith" is not "faith" until after that work is completed. Scripture knows no such notion; KJV "work of faith" at 1 Thessalonians 1:3 and 2 Thessolonians 1:11 refers to the works Christians do because of their faith. This is contrary to the Church of Christ definition, where no one is a Christian until that work is finished.

Paul put is best when he by inspiration said, "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:26-27

I believe I explained the ancient cultural ritual and its significance that Paul was referring to. See the thread "Fun With Baptism" 07-28-2006, 10:43 PM.

Paul said it very well at Galatians 3:24-7. Churches of Christ typically take one verse out of that and interpret it wrongly -- Paul's ancient New Testament Christian readers and hearers of reading rightly got a different impression.

 

[mman]

Many non-Christians who come to church do not know the importance of ANY of them. The Churches of Christ's predominance of time on baptism in salvation messages is against Scripture's approved example, and there is a reason why Scripture does as it does. Salvation by faith/belief, of which repentance is part, is mentioned more than confession in any context, as is the case with baptism. Stepping outside the New Testament pattern on this has negative consequences regardless of opinions on a need to emphasize any one act of this.

Even after being dragged to two moderate Church of Christ congregations as an atheist by parents for two years, I never learned anything besides baptism; I learned nothing of belief/faith + repentance. I learned about all of these in a pastor's study in a Baptist church when a youth pastor went over the Word of God with me about salvation.


You fail to show how. You just seem to want to contradict. In fall of 1998 when I decided to take seriously both Church of Christ salvation doctrine and Baptist salvation doctrine and create a picture from the passages centered on by both, it was I who had to study how they worked together.

Church of Christ messages on baptism create apparent contradictions. "Salvation by faith" and "not of works" is contradictory to `salvation only after you do this, that, or the other.'


by reading the rest of the second passage you quoted: 1 Peter 3:21b "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience" (NASB).


Scripture says "not of works" and that does not say "not of non-meritorious works." It says "not of works."

"Work of faith" is still a work. As the Churches of Christ commonly define this, it is basically a work that makes faith into faith only when completed. In other words, "faith" is not "faith" until after that work is completed. Scripture knows no such notion; KJV "work of faith" at 1 Thessalonians 1:3 and 2 Thessolonians 1:11 refers to the works Christians do because of their faith. This is contrary to the Church of Christ definition, where no one is a Christian until that work is finished.


I believe I explained the ancient cultural ritual and its significance that Paul was referring to. See the thread "Fun With Baptism" 07-28-2006, 10:43 PM.

Paul said it very well at Galatians 3:24-7. Churches of Christ typically take one verse out of that and interpret it wrongly -- Paul's ancient New Testament Christian readers and hearers of reading rightly got a different impression.

Baptism is no more a work than confession is. In fact, if you will search the scriptures you will find that the only work ever associated with baptism is done by God!

You cannot misunderstand Romans. If you read the entire book, or memorize it like DHK, you will notice in all his discussion concerning justification by faith, you have Rom 6.

You can search the bible from cover to cover and you will only find two passages that tell us specifically how one gets into Christ. Rom 6 is one of them.

Baptism takes more faith than some people have. It is foolishness to others. Others take it lightly and put it off for years.

The preaching of Jesus includes instructions for water baptism. That is plainly seen in the book of Acts. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (I Cor 15:1-4). We obey that in baptism (Rom 6:3-5, 17).

If you want to know about a subject and have the full truth, see all that God has said about the subject.

You cannot have the truth about getting into Christ and omit baptism.
You cannot have the truth about salvation and omit baptism
You cannot have the truth about having your sins washed away and omit baptism.
You cannot have the truth about how we come in contact with the death of Jesus, where his blood was shed, and omit baptism.

Sure, other things are associtated with these topics and all are included, however, just because they are included, does not exclude baptism.

 

[DHK]

Baptism is no more a work than confession is. In fact, if you will search the scriptures you will find that the only work ever associated with baptism is done by God!

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
--Don't take Scripture out of context. Salvation is by faith. It says that you must believe in your heart. Confession would be both a result and a part of it.

You cannot misunderstand Romans. If you read the entire book, or memorize it like DHK, you will notice in all his discussion concerning justification by faith, you have Rom 6.

Romans 6:3,4 does not speak of justification. It speaks of baptism. It speaks of baptism being a picture, a symbol of the believer's death to his old life, and rising again to a new life in Christ. It is a picture, and nothing more.

You can search the bible from cover to cover and you will only find two passages that tell us specifically how one gets into Christ. Rom 6 is one of them.

You can't get into Christ, as much as you can't get into a picture!
Do you think you can get on TV by poking your head through the TV set?
It is a picture; purely symbolic.

Baptism takes more faith than some people have. It is foolishness to others. Others take it lightly and put it off for years.

You have it wrong.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
--Paul says that the gospel is foolishness to unbelievers; but he never equated baptism as such. In fact this is what he said about baptism:

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
--Paul differentiates between the gospel and baptism. God commanded him not to baptize but to preach the gospel. Baptism wasn't even part of his ministry. In fact he was commanded not to. Obviously then, not all believers were baptized right away. It wasn't important to Paul that they were baptized right away, for Paul was not even called to baptize. It wasn't that important in relation to the preaching of the gospel.

The preaching of Jesus includes instructions for water baptism. That is plainly seen in the book of Acts. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (I Cor 15:1-4). We obey that in baptism (Rom 6:3-5, 17).

No you don't obey that in baptism. Baptism is a picture. The gospel is obedience to Christ's command. Paul defined the gospel in 1Cor.15:1-4, as you referred to, but note that there is no baptism mentioned there. To add baptism is heresy.

If you want to know about a subject and have the full truth, see all that God has said about the subject.

I have done that, far more than you think.

You err not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God.
DHK

 

[Darron Steele]

Part 1 of 2:

Baptism is no more a work than confession is. In fact, if you will search the scriptures you will find that the only work ever associated with baptism is done by God!

Baptism is done by God? Where?

Here has been my observation:
Romans 4:5 says “And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness” (ESV). As demonstrated earlier in this section, the separation of bodily works from the causes of salvation is also stated at Titus 3:5 and Ephesians 2:8-9. This is sometimes avoided by asserting that baptism is God’s work. This is not shown by Scripture. Throughout the New Testament, those who baptize are always shown to be people. We start with John 4:2 where Jesus’ disciples are given credit for baptizing. At Matthew 28:19a Jesus Himself commands "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, |bautizad = baptize| them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, |enseñad = teach| them to observe everything that I have commanded you" (NBV|RVA margin and translated|NBV|RVA margin and translated|NBV). These disciples were to make converts who would follow the Lord as disciples, they were to baptize, and they were to teach. Here, those baptizing are the disciples. At Acts 8:38, Philip is given credit for baptizing the Ethiopian official. At 1 Corinthians 1:16 Paul indicates he baptized the household of Stephanus. In Scripture, every time the baptizer is specified, it is always a person and never God. Hence, when a person is baptized, the baptism is considered done by a person and received by another person.

You cannot misunderstand Romans. If you read the entire book, or memorize it like DHK, you will notice in all his discussion concerning justification by faith, you have Rom 6.

Hey: you want to know something? The first book I studied by reading and taking notes over when I got saved was the entire book of Romans.

It was suggested we study this way in the youth group at that Baptist church.

It is a common arrogant assumption by the hard-line Churches of Christ to assume that they are the only ones who study the Scriptures.

You can search the bible from cover to cover and you will only find two passages that tell us specifically how one gets into Christ. Rom 6 is one of them.

Ah, Romans 6:2-11. Where we are shown a picture of our relationship to sin. I realize it is easier to just focus on three verses especially when they seem more interesting, but those three verses are part of this longer passage.

Romans 6:2b “We are those who have died to sin” (TNIV). This is obviously a picture because reality is that Christians still face the sin problem per 1 John 1:8-10. Romans 6:11 closes “reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin” (ASV). Romans 6:2-11 gives a picture of the Christian’s viewed relationship to sin, Romans 6:3-5 is part of that passage.

As far as the "baptized into" it is also translated "batizados em" (de Almeida ERA) = baptized in. The expression is also used at I Corinthians 10:2 where the Israelites of the Exodus were described as being “batizados em Moisés” (de Almeida ERC) = “baptized in Moses.” Basically, they had recognized Moses as their spiritual authority just the way we do with Christ.

"Baptized into" is a doubtful translation.

Baptism takes more faith than some people have. It is foolishness to others. Others take it lightly and put it off for years.

Baptism is actually the easy way out for some. Many think that once they get baptized they have their big obligation taken care of with God. It shows in their attitudes. The Gospel makes no changes to them.

As for the second, you are `preaching to the choir.'

As for the third, you are more so `preaching to the choir.' I am in agreement with you 100% how some professing Christians do not seem in a hurry to get baptized. The Bible assumes immediate baptism, and assumes every Christian has been through it as one of the first things done at conversion. Therefore, why anyone would take is so lightly is just foreign to me.

My delayed baptism was not my choice.

The preaching of Jesus includes instructions for water baptism. That is plainly seen in the book of Acts. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (I Cor 15:1-4). We obey that in baptism (Rom 6:3-5, 17).

If you want to know about a subject and have the full truth, see all that God has said about the subject.

You cannot have the truth about getting into Christ and omit baptism.
You cannot have the truth about salvation and omit baptism

I am in total agreement with you. We should teach baptism in salvation messages -- but with emphasis on faith/belief + repentance as in Scripture. We should be baptized regardless of its role in salvation.

However, we should not be teaching that we are saved not upon biblical belief/faith which includes repentance but only upon completed baptism. We should be teaching as Scripture teaches: we are saved upon biblical faith/belief which includes repentance.

You cannot have the truth about having your sins washed away and omit baptism.

Acts 22:16 has already been read more carefully.

You cannot have the truth about how we come in contact with the death of Jesus, where his blood was shed, and omit baptism.

I have never seen a Scripture passage which teaches that by baptism we are placed in contact with Jesus' blood.

If there is one that has been used -- or, probably more accurately: misused -- for that purpose, I would love to see it.

 

[Darron Steele]

Part 2 of 2:
The emphasis in the Churches of Christ is on baptism passages. However, I never seen it explained how passages that clearly teach salvation upon biblical belief/faith which includes repentance are to be reconciled with a belief that salvation is only by completed baptism.

Romans 4:5 is clear on the matter. Church of Christ people generally tend to ignore it when it is referred to.

Ephesians 1:13b says "after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed in Him, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (NASB alternate), and 1:14a continues “He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession” (HCSB). As you know, a down payment signifies that the purchase is for real. Upon belief, these people received the Holy Spirt, which was the guarantee of their redemption.

The same book at Ephesians 2:8-10 “for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (ESV|ICB|ESV). Here, if you look closely, we are saved by faith "not a result of works," and then after this salvation where we are made new people through Christ, we do good works.

These verses are clear that salvation goes to the person with biblical faith/belief. Passages used to negate this by claiming that some work on the part of the mortal must be completed create an apparent contradiction. We are either saved by biblical belief/faith or it is is not enough and we are saved afterward by it in combination with some completed act or acts on our part. These cannot both be true.

I see only a few choices for how all of these passages in Scripture go together:
1) The Word of God contradicts itself on the matter of salvation;
2) Passages indicating that we are saved by biblical faith/belief are not translated and/or interpreted correctly;
3) Passages indicating that specific works are required to be completed after biblical belief/faith are translated and/or interpreted incorrectly;
4) Some of #2 and #3.
In my observation, Churches of Christ typically typically make no effort to deal with this tension. In my own study to deal with this tension, I found out that it was #4 with a predominance of #3 and only a smattering of #2.

Again, Churches of Christ just seem to pretend like the passages about how we are saved by biblical faith/belief merely give an incomplete picture. We typically avoid acknowledging how these passages by necessity exclude the addition of any type of completed work afterward on our part.

 

[mman]

Again, Churches of Christ just seem to pretend like the passages about how we are saved by biblical faith/belief merely give an incomplete picture. We typically avoid acknowledging how these passages by necessity exclude the addition of any type of completed work afterward on our part.

The scriptures plainly tell us, "By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days." - Heb 11:30

This whole chapter is dealing with what faith is. You contrast faith and works. You contentd if something is done by faith, no works are involved. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works. We are saved by grace throug faith, and not of our works.

The walls of Jericho fell by faith and not because of their works. Now, do you really think that their obedience was not essential in obtaining the promise? God had already given them Jericho, therefore it was a gift to them (Josh 6:2).

Faith is doing what God said. Whether in the Old Testament to make walls fall down or in the New Testament, to have the remission of my sins or to put me into Christ (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Rom 6:3-4,17, Gal 3:27).

We truly are saved by grace through faith. AMEN!!!! I'm sure glad I don't have to earn any part of it. I can't boast because I've earned NOTHING!

The Church of Christ doesn't ignore the passages that you suggest. Rom 4 is not ignored.

When was the scripture FULFILLED that said Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness? We don't have to wonder, it was when he obeyed according to James 2:21-24. Still his actions did not "earn" him anything. God did not owe him because of his works.

If someone were to say, email me your bank account number and I will wire 1 Billion dollars to your account, would that action on your part merit anything? No, of course not. You can email your bank account number to everyone in the world and NOBODY would owe you 1 penny, because your actions are non-meritorious.

If you were wired the money, you could not boast that you earned one cent of it, because you didn't. It was given by the grace of the giver, not because he owed you, because then you could boast, but because of his grace.

If you do not accept the conditions of the promise, and email your account number, you cannot expect the rewards of the promise. If however, you believe in the one who made the promise and you obey, the promise can be FULFILLED.

For by grace you were made a billionare through faith. And this in not your own doing; it is a gift of the giver, not a result of works, so that you may not boast.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. - Eph 2:8-9

Remember, the walls fell by faith, not belief alone prior to action.
We are saved by faith, not belief alone prior to action.

 

[Eric B]

I responded to that analogy before.
E-mailing the number would be more analogous to believing in this case. It is something directly necessary to allow the transaction to proceed. If baptism is what saved, that is not something necessary for the transaction, yet basically a "busy work task" assigned to the transaction; --basically a "test of obedience" (like your walls of Jericho example, which was not about salvation). That WOULD be something that EARNed a reward, and would correspond to asking you to stand on your head on TV, or circle the bank 7 times to get the money.

No matter how you argue it, the minute you add in an additional task, you turn it into a reward that is earned.

 

[mman]

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

--Don't take Scripture out of context. Salvation is by faith. It says that you must believe in your heart. Confession would be both a result and a part of it.

Romans 6:3,4 does not speak of justification. It speaks of baptism. It speaks of baptism being a picture, a symbol of the believer's death to his old life, and rising again to a new life in Christ. It is a picture, and nothing more.

You can't get into Christ, as much as you can't get into a picture!
Do you think you can get on TV by poking your head through the TV set?
It is a picture; purely symbolic.

You have it wrong.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
--Paul says that the gospel is foolishness to unbelievers; but he never equated baptism as such. In fact this is what he said about baptism:

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
--Paul differentiates between the gospel and baptism. God commanded him not to baptize but to preach the gospel. Baptism wasn't even part of his ministry. In fact he was commanded not to. Obviously then, not all believers were baptized right away. It wasn't important to Paul that they were baptized right away, for Paul was not even called to baptize. It wasn't that important in relation to the preaching of the gospel.

No you don't obey that in baptism. Baptism is a picture. The gospel is obedience to Christ's command. Paul defined the gospel in 1Cor.15:1-4, as you referred to, but note that there is no baptism mentioned there. To add baptism is heresy.

I have done that, far more than you think.

You err not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God.
DHK

No, DHK. I know you are sincere. I respect you for that. I know you have it all worked out in your mind and if this one point changes, your whole belief system would drastically change, resulting in life changing events, so you defend it mightly, tooth and nail, for which I whole heartly commend you for. People need to be steadfast, not carried about with every wind of doctrine.

You bible knowledge is impressive. It is obvious to me that you have spent many hours studying God's word. Your tact is sometimes lacking, and I think even you would admit that, but that's another subject:tongue3:.

Let's look at the passage in I Cor a little closer.

Were the Corinthians baptized? Let's read Acts 18:8, "And many of the Corinthians hearing Paul believed and were baptized."

Did Paul baptize any of them? Yes, a few.

Is there any indication that any of the believers were NOT baptized? NONE!!!!

They were baptized, but Paul didn't do very much of the baptizing and he was glad. Why? Because Paul and the Corinthians understood the importance of baptism. In order to belong to Christ, He would have to die for you and you would have to be baptized in His name. In order for you to belong to Paul, he would have to be crucified for you and you would have to be baptized in his name.

Let's read it in context.

I Cor 1:12-17 "What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."

The word “baptize” here denotes “to administer the rite” of baptism (J.H. Thayer, Greek Lexicon, p. 94).

Paul's primary mission was to preach the gospel which he did as seen in Acts 18:8. The people who believed his message were baptized, therefore his gospel message contained instructions for baptism.

We obey the gospel (death, burial, and resurrection according to I Cor 15) in baptism according to Rom 6:3-4, 17.

If "Baptism wasn't important to the gospel message" why were they baptized at the preaching of it?

If "Baptism wasn't important to the gospel message", was Jesus confused when He said, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."? If baptism wasn't important to the gospel message then neither would "belief" be.

Belief and immediate baptism are always the proper response to the preaching of the gospel (Mark 16:15-16, Acts 18:8, Acts 2:37-38, Acts 8:5,12,35-38, 16:30-34).

Also, the scriptures say we are baptized INTO Christ, and you say that, no you are not really baptized into Christ. I agree that baptism is a symbol, a symbol of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. Since we can't literally die, be buried, and raised again, we OBEY a form of that in baptism (Rom 6:3-4,17). It is not a symbol of our salvation, but a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection.

We are baptized INTO his death (Rom 6:3-4), where His blood flowed. Remember what came forth from Jesus side (Jn 19:34)? I know you do, blood and water. Coincidence? I think not. We are baptized (water) INTO His death (blood). We come in contact with the blood in the water. See how this all fits perfectly into place?

Matt 26:28 - Blood - for the remission of sins
Acts 2:38 - Baptized (Water) - for the remission of sins

 

[Darron Steele]

Mman:
I realize many in the Churches of Christ love the account of the walls of Jericho as alluded to in Hebrews. Had not the Hebrews obeyed God trusting him to do something for them, the walls would not have fallen.

Church of Christ people also love the healing of Naaman. He was not fully healed of leprosy until he dipped himself in water seven times.

Let me give you another example of something happening by faith: a case where multiple people were healed by Jesus. He gave a command to 10 lepers, but healed them as they were going – see Luke 17:12-19

“Then as He entered a certain village, there met Him ten men who were lepers, who stood afar off. And they lifted up their voices and said, `Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!’ So when He saw them, He said to them, `Go, show yourselves to the priests.’ And so it was that as they went, they were cleansed. And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, returned, and with a loud voice glorified God, and fell down on his face at His feet, giving Him thanks. And he was a Samaritan. So Jesus answered and said, `Were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine? Were there not any found who returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?’ And He said to him, `Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well’” (NKJV).

The 10 lepers were all healed: “as they went, they were cleansed” (NKJV) per 17:14. They had NOT completed their ONE command to get to the priests and show themselves, yet because they believed and were acting accordingly, they were cleansed; this one had not even made it to the priest when he noticed, but was already given his health by “faith.”

This is a healing recorded in the New Testament. This closely resembles our salvation now -- we are given spiritual health by faith in this way.

As I have pointed out, English translations and Americanized understandings of allusions to ancient affairs notwithstanding, the Scriptures do not call for `salvation only upon completed baptism.' The Scriptures teach salvation by biblical faith/belief "not of works, that no man should glory" Ephesians 2:8-9 (ASV) and then followed by works "ordained" by God Ephesians 2:10 (KJV). As you know, God ordained baptism specifically for Christians. You have baptism out of order.

 

[bmerr]

The 10 lepers were all healed: “as they went, they were cleansed” (NKJV) per 17:14. They had NOT completed their ONE command to get to the priests and show themselves, yet because they believed and were acting accordingly, they were cleansed; this one had not even made it to the priest when he noticed, but was already given his health by “faith.” (emphasis added - bmerr)

Darron,

bmerr here. There were actually two commands, "Go", and "shew yourselves to the priests". Jesus commanded these things in response to the lepers' crying out for Him to "...have mercy on us". They were not promised healing for their leprosy. I would agree that healing is what they desired, and had in mind when they went.

You made the point mman and myself have been making when you said what I bolded above. They believed and acted accordingly. They were doing what Jesus told them to do. Jesus did not condition their healing on their showing themselves to the priests. He just told them what to do, and they set about doing it. Their faith produced action appropiate to the command given.

How can you not see the same thing with regard to baptism?

The Scriptures teach salvation by biblical faith/belief

And how does the Bible describe "biblical faith/belief"? Is it not in the repeated examples of Heb 11 etc, that show the believer doing what God said to do?

As you know, God ordained baptism specifically for Christians.

Not once in all of Scripture is a Christian ever told to be baptized.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[mman]

I responded to that analogy before.
E-mailing the number would be more analogous to believing in this case. It is something directly necessary to allow the transaction to proceed. If baptism is what saved, that is not something necessary for the transaction, yet basically a "busy work task" assigned to the transaction; --basically a "test of obedience" (like your walls of Jericho example, which was not about salvation). That WOULD be something that EARNed a reward, and would correspond to asking you to stand on your head on TV, or circle the bank 7 times to get the money.

No matter how you argue it, the minute you add in an additional task, you turn it into a reward that is earned.

No, the emailing is not believing it is ACTING UPON YOUR BELIEF!!!

There is no value in standing on your head and circling a bank 7 times. Of what merit is that? A reward? That makes absoultly NO SENSE!!

No matter how you cut it, the walls fell by faith, not belief before action!

 

[mman]

Mman:
I realize many in the Churches of Christ love the account of the walls of Jericho as alluded to in Hebrews. Had not the Hebrews obeyed God trusting him to do something for them, the walls would not have fallen.

Church of Christ people also love the healing of Naaman. He was not fully healed of leprosy until he dipped himself in water seven times.

Let me give you another example of something happening by faith: a case where multiple people were healed by Jesus. He gave a command to 10 lepers, but healed them as they were going – see Luke 17:12-19

“Then as He entered a certain village, there met Him ten men who were lepers, who stood afar off. And they lifted up their voices and said, `Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!’ So when He saw them, He said to them, `Go, show yourselves to the priests.’ And so it was that as they went, they were cleansed. And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, returned, and with a loud voice glorified God, and fell down on his face at His feet, giving Him thanks. And he was a Samaritan. So Jesus answered and said, `Were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine? Were there not any found who returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?’ And He said to him, `Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well’” (NKJV).

The 10 lepers were all healed: “as they went, they were cleansed” (NKJV) per 17:14. They had NOT completed their ONE command to get to the priests and show themselves, yet because they believed and were acting accordingly, they were cleansed; this one had not even made it to the priest when he noticed, but was already given his health by “faith.”

This is a healing recorded in the New Testament. This closely resembles our salvation now -- we are given spiritual health by faith in this way.

As I have pointed out, English translations and Americanized understandings of allusions to ancient affairs notwithstanding, the Scriptures do not call for `salvation only upon completed baptism.' The Scriptures teach salvation by biblical faith/belief "not of works, that no man should glory" Ephesians 2:8-9 (ASV) and then followed by works "ordained" by God Ephesians 2:10 (KJV). As you know, God ordained baptism specifically for Christians. You have baptism out of order.

I've never heard that much concerning the walls of Jericho. That comes from my own reading. The similarities are there. Jericho was a gift. They didn't earn it. Action was required. The promise was fulfilled when the action was complete. It is summarized as "by faith".

As bmerr pointed out, they lepers did obey a command. The command to go. They fulfilled that instruction when they went.

If one of the lepers refused to "go" and decided to stay because they couldn't see the utility in "going", do you think that one would have been healed who ignored the instructions of Jesus? That makes as much sense as someone today saying, I've made Jesus the Lord of my life yet I am not going to obey (be baptized) Him.

 

[Darron Steele]

Yes bmerr:
The faith of Luke 17:12-19 was acting -- but the directive was NOT completed. Of course, if any leper decided that s/he was not going to go to the priest, s/he would not have been healed, anymore than someone who decides s/he is not going to obey the Lord would be saved.

I am not suggesting that we do not have to be baptized. This healing, however, suggests that a faith that would get us into the water is what saves us.

That is what Scripture, when we are "handling aright" 2 Timothy 2:15, teaches. I have looked over the centrated verses of both Baptists and Church of Christ people and after "giving diligence" to learn, found that those passages teach this: faith that gets us to act on it saves us, and one of the specific acts that follow from this faith is submission to baptism -- but that faith that gets us there saves us before we can get it done.

Your position is that one can have that very same faith, yet it does not matter until the baptism ceremony is over.

If we are saved by biblical faith/belief "not of works" as Ephesians 2:8-10 outline, but not so until completed baptism, we have a contradiction. If the baptizee has the same faith:
1) before baptism that motivates confirmation of that faith by baptism, and
2) which s/he is acknowledged to have after baptism,
the fact remains that the baptizee would not be saved because of that faith but rather because of that baptism.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are saved by biblical belief/faith "not of works" and then after we are made anew in Christ, we do works "ordained" by God (KJV).

As you know, God ordained baptism specifically for Christians.

Not once in all of Scripture is a Christian ever told to be baptized.

Exactly who was baptism intended for? Was it intended for everyone regardless of whether or not they believed the Gospel? There are many people who would love to escape lifelong servitude to Jesus Christ by just being baptized and who think they have.

I posit that baptism is only for followers of Jesus Christ, and God "ordained" that it be done. Going with the text, rather than trying to divert the topic, puts baptism as a follow-up work to faith "not of works" that saves us beforehand.

I also posit that "obey" means MUCH more than baptism.
Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, |but only | the kind of faith that works through love” (NASB|ESV|ICB).
Philippians 2:12b “ocupaos en vuestra salvación” (RVR 1909/1960/1995, RVA) = “You-busy-you in your salvation.”
Even before and after baptism, we do not have biblical faith unless we have an attitude that makes us do from our hearts the general good works God calls for.

 

[Eric B]

No, the emailing is not believing it is ACTING UPON YOUR BELIEF!!!

There is no value in standing on your head and circling a bank 7 times. Of what merit is that? A reward? That makes absoultly NO SENSE!!

No matter how you cut it, the walls fell by faith, not belief before action!

I didn't say the e-mailing is believing, and yes, it is acting on your belief, but the point here is that it is the believing that accomplishes the goal, not the act, which in this case is a natural necessary means of the transaction, in in the other case (standing on your head) is an arbitrary set condition.
So if a person tells you to stand on your head or circle 7 times to test your obedience, or whatever, then it DOES become merit and reward, for the person who set that as the condition of giving it to him made it that way by setting it as the condition, for whatever reason he chose, (thus adding something to the natural requirements of the transaction) rather than it being a necessary natural means.