Civil tithing debate

Yes, we are not under the law it was used to support the tribe of Levi; that is the case that can be made on one side.
Do we want to be less generous those under the Old Testament? That is a good point on the other side.
All of us will stand at the Judgement Seat of Christ. It is written the Lord loveth a cheerful giver: perhaps that will be the most important thing, our attitude toward giving.

 

Very cogent arguement soulman. I agree. Those that agree with the Old testament tithe think that those of us who dont, do not give enough. But there are times when one will give more than a tithe, sometimes less. It is the Lord that leads, not the law.
I have found that the biggest proponents for tithing are Baptists pastors who are afraid thast their flock wont give enough so they scare them into giving 10% in order to meet the budget.
"If you dont tithe, God will get your money some other way blah blah....."

 

Another point is that the tithe was agriculturally based upon the increase of crops and animals in the Land.

If one planted 10 bushels of wheat and reaped 500 bushels then that one owed the Lord 50 (or 49 on the increase).

Also under the law the wage earner was not expected to tithe even if he lived in the Land.

The NT principle of giving is relatively simple.

1. By faith: The just shall live by faith.
2. a private matter between God and his child.
3. The "blessing" based upon proportionate reaping and sowing, not tithing.

2 Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

So, if a man purposes in his heart to tithe (or any other scheduled giving) by faith and has peace and joy toward God for his giving then there is no problem.

In this case concerning the law vs. grace, the tithe is one option of many (either more or less) according to the believer's free will and disgression.

Out of faith and not grudgingly, or of necessity are the operative phrases.

The pastoral exhortation to give IMO should NEVER be out of the OT "necessity" of the tithe but out of the New Covenant promise He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully .

Or stronger:

Galatians 6
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

The things we acquire for the flesh which in and of themselves may not be wrong will eventually rust away and be lost. On the other hand, as the children of God we can "invest in heaven" which we will reap in heaven (and even here as well).

HankD

 

HankD. Good post. To me, the biggest issue is for people to understand what exactly tithing was in the Old Testament. It was God's agricultural tax and welfare system for the theocratic government of the nation of Israel. It was also part of the ceremonial law. It cannot be equated to 10% of one's income.

Notice that tithes were always of agricultural products. No, the Israelites were not only an agricultural people. I can assure you they had clothes, houses, and money too.

In fact, money did play a part in the tithe law:

Money was necessary to carry titheable commodities to the place of celebration. Money was never a titheable commodity. There is no where in Scripture where one can find anyone tithing money.
Also, every first and second year, the tithe was a local collaborative celebration. Everyone ate their own tithes together and shared it. Every third year the tithe was laid outside the gates so that people who had need could be sustained. If tithing were required for the church, they certainly are not observing it correctly.

[ November 25, 2005, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: AresMan ]

 

Luke 21.4 might relate.

 

Yes, good verse. Notice also that no "tithe" is mentioned. These were "gifts". The point being that you should give all that you can give and not limit yourself (whether upper or lower) to a phantom 10% mandate, which cannot accurately be correlated to the ceremonial agricultural tithe laws for Israel.

 

Let's search for sites that argue in favor of the church tithing command. Read them yourself and see if any of them hold water:

Does God Command Tithing?
Celestial Church of Christ - Tithing
Kentucky Baptist Convention - Tithing Counts
Tithe, tithes, tithing, and offerings
The Issue: Tithing--Are We Obligated to Tithe on our Net or our Gross Income?
Providence Baptist Ministries - Tithing
The Practice of Tithing as a Minimum Standard of Christian Giving
$$Is Tithing $$ $$ for Today? $$
Bethel Church of God - Tithing Today?
Tithing: Established by Law

 

I may not be that smart but maybe I can be corrected about those who say we are not under the law but under grace. I realize we are saved by God's grace and not works so don't read anything into it.

I recall Jesus saying that He came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. We know that He did not in anyway, shape or form mess that part up. So how is it that most of us say we are supposed to be Christ like and eliminate the parts of the law that we do not agree with, like for example oooohhh ummm....I dunno...lets say tithing? We are saved by grace but prove our devotion through obedience to Christ which as far as I can tell would be to honor the laws which were set in front of us as guidlines to living. The prophet Samuel told King Saul the God desires obedience before sacrifice. I am sure that has not changed from OT to the NT.

The only laws I know of that changed were the sacrifice of animals and other grain offerings for the forgiveness of sins. I need to be corrected if wrong but I am pretty sure I am not wrong. I know all of that was to fortell the future coming of Crhist and was a temporary way until that to be forgivin of their sins. As far as I can tell from the OT they were forgivin by the blood of animals and cleansed of their sins which still ment they were not able to do anything on their own volition to forgive themselves but still had to obey the law required of them.

Can I be Christ like and not attempt to fulfill the law like Jesus did? Jesus fulfilled the law out of obedience. Tithing will not get us to heaven but it is an act of obedience to the law.

How many of the laws from the old testament are still supposed to be followed into the new testament? Other than sacrficial laws I would assume that all of them are still supposed to be followed out of obedience to Christ.

If I am wrong I would like a list of all the laws that are still supposed to be adhered to and all the ones that are not valid anymore. Heck if the law of thou shalt not murder has no more meaning than their a few people I need to go revisit and there are a few goodies I would like to go pick up at the hardware store and not really have to pay for them and my neighbor has a great riding lawnmower that I think would be much better in my shed than his and his truck too.

And I have yet to be in a denominational or non denominational church that says you do not need to tithe.

If you really analyze why God chose 10% as the required amount it can be quit comforting to those who want to please God.
1. You know how much to give with out feeling guilty for not giving enough.
2. It challenges those who love God and yet are really cheap and miserly and keeps them accountable.
3. It can keep you from compromising your giving when it isn't convienient and keeps us believers consitent in our giving. We humans can easily get out of good habits.
4. It helps you to see what kind of priority money is over God in your life or if it is.
5. Knowing your giving 10% every paycheck really helps you to see what are needs and what are wants. In other words is your 10% cutting into your wants.
6. Again it helps you to be consitent on giving to God and giving in general.
7. Last but not least, at least God does not require 90% of our earnings and let us only keep 10%. Hey we have a generous God.

God does not need our money and it is for our benifit to tithe not His.

 

My whole issue with the church tithing thing is that 10% of one's monetary income was never ever what tithing meant all throughout the Bible. Tithing was always 10% of the yearly increase of one's harvest. The first and second year you ate your own tithe (kind of like the other observed yearly feasts). The third year is when you laid your tithe outside your gates for the Levite, the fatherless, the widows, and the foreigners: 10% of the increase of one's agriculture--not monetary income. There is a big difference.
It was agriculture only, and this was not because they had a barter system. Deuteronomy 14 clearly said that if the way was too long to go to the place of celebration, they were to convert it into money, carry the money, then exchange the money for titheable commodities--food and sacrificial animals. Some of the tithe was to be eaten by the tithers "whatsoever thy soul lusteth after" and some was to be offered as burnt offerings. They were to eat and celebrate the tithe among themselves and rejoice.
Every third year the tithe was publicly offered to outsiders.

The tithe was part of the Hebrew ceremonial law. It was God's national tax and welfare system for the theocratic government of the nation of Israel for all the cities of tillage, just like they were to release debts every seven years and every fiftieth year--the year of Jubilee, also part of the ceremonial law. If we are supposed to observe the tithe laws (which paying 10% of one's paycheck to a church treasury is not the same thing, not even close!), WHY don't we observe the other laws that immediately surround the tithe laws, and observe the Jewish feasts, release debts every seven years, and eat only clean animals?

My point is not so much that "tithing has been superceded by grace" but "so many people misunderstand what tithing actually was in the Bible." Read and study the tithing laws. No where in the Bible does anyone tithe money. No where! Income cannot be equated to yearly increase of agricultural harvest.

I encourage you all to please read your Bibles for yourselves. Don't just cling tenaciously to man-made traditions loosely based on Scriptures just because you've been taught such all your lives. Believe me, I know where you are coming from, and reading Scripture itself and not just accepting everything people tell me is what finally convinced me.

 

God have mercy on my thankless, ungrateful, carnal soul, if after deserving hell and being bought with a price I COULD NOT PAY, I am unable to conjour up a mere 10% for the Lord. 10%, the tithe, was the mandate of the law...Grace demands much more than the law. In my church we have about 11 families (though we are growing)...it is a small town, with small town jobs and incomes, but we support 25 missionaries...I gaurantee that NNE in our congregation is middling about a piddling 10%!

I owed a debt I could not pay.
He paid a debt He did not owe.

DON'T BE AN INGRATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Grace demands more!

 

I do pay more!

 

I am not discouraging anyone from giving. Please give all you can, much more than 10% whenever possible!

What I am still trying to get at is that so many people misunderstand what tithing was in the Bible. It never was 10% of one's monetary income. How can you say we as the church are obligated to pay 10% of our paychecks to the church treasury when that is never what tithing was in the Bible in the first place.

I am looking for someone, anyone, to please refute what I say without simply repeating a mantra. Please address the Scriptures I have consistently been posting and my comments. I would like to see honest proof that the totality of Scriptures referencing tithing would indicate that a Christian must 10% of his income to a local church.

Now, concerning giving, I do practice cheerful giving, and I do give what amounts to well over 10%. But just because I do that doesn't mean everyone else must give the same amount.

By the way, did I mention that 10% of one's paycheck is not the same thing as the tithe anywhere in the Bible. I think I mentioned that a few times. I think I also posted much of the Scripture containing the actual tithe laws. There are quite a few places in the Bible where tithing is mentioned indeed. Not one of them can be accurately compared to one-tenth of a paycheck. Not one has to do with money, except as an intermediary. So, grit your teeth and actually read the tithing passages in the Bible. I think you'll be surprised.

But once again I want to point out I am all for generous and abundant giving. I think the confusion lies when many people ambiguously refer to all giving as "tithing" and they think that when someone says that we are not required to "tithe" that it is the same as saying we are not supposed to give. Nothing can be further from the truth. All I want to do is seek and and proclaim the truth. That's all.

 

Here is an interesting series on tithing:

http://www.seekgod.ca/tithing.htm

 

Boanerges....THAT was quite possibly the BEST printed series on tithing that I have ever seen!!Anyone who will give it an HONEST,OBJECTIVE reading will have to question the practice of tithing in our age.....and I might add(I'm already convinced),reject it.The so-called "tithing" 99.9%of the "professing" "christian world does is totally unscriptural both in style AND substance.Anybody who preaches and teaches "tithing" in this age must do it at the expense of the clear teaching of the Word of God.This is CLEARLY demonstrated in the aforementioned website as well as repeatedly on the BB by many such as Soulman,AresMan and many others.Truth has a way of rising to the surface brothers.Thank God for His unfathomable Grace and the freedom he gives us in Christ from the bondage of the Law.God have mercy on any that would seek to bring anyone back under the bondage of the law.

Greg Sr.

 

How can saying that a believer must pay 10% of his paycheck to a church organization be bringing people "back under the bondage of the law" when the 10%-paycheck idea never was part of the law in the firstplace? Yes, I believe that we are not in bondage to the Law and thence aren't required to tithe. However, my main point is firstly that the 10%-paycheck scheme is first and foremost not the tithe of the Bible. Once you figure that out, then the whole thing comes into perspective. Please understand what the Biblical tithe is first, before you argue whether or not it is required for the church, which it clearly is not.

 

Soulman...well said brother....and you are correct about the intent of my previous statements.I get really tired of hearing preachers stand up and beat their people into submission with unscriptural THREATS by mis-applying Malachi 3 to the New Testament church.They tell us to study our bibles and live clean and walk pure(and that's all well and good)and then they throw all the standard rules of biblical interpretation out the window when it comes to the subject of money....and try to say that tithing equals money.They are either dishonest OR have been badly taught.I prefer to think most of them have simply accepted without question what they were TAUGHT in school or from the pulpit without question or objectivity.God gave us brains to use and His Word as our guide....and His Holy Spirit to lead us.We will all give an account for how we handled that.

Greg Sr.