This apparently didn't satisfy JArthur on his thread but this is the definitive response to "Lordship" in salvation. At salvation, we believe in GOD's Lordship. In discipleship that follows salvation, we believe in Christ's Lordship.
Here's what I believed when I was saved. It sounds much different than the LS "formulary" although I can use some of Calvinism's terminology to describe it.
When I was saved, I believed that God, the Father, was Lord of all and would be my Lord if I accepted Christ. He is all wisdom and truth. I believed (and still do) that receiving Christ as Savior through repentance was the only way to 1) be reconciled to the Father, 2) to know what my Lord, God, wanted me to do with my life and 3) to receive the power (HS) to carry it out. Notice, though, salvation and regeneration and indwelling of the Spirit come AFTER repentance.
At the time of my conversion, the gospel did not have to do with Jesus as Lord but God as Lord. Since that day, I have come to learn that "reconciling" with God is called "justification." We are not reconciling with Jesus. Instead, God "gives" us to His Son as "disciples" just as LS appears to demand.
So the "ordo salutis" is this: God "draws" us to Savior Christ -- we "come" to Him repenting for reconciliation to God -- God "gives" us to Christ as disciples/followers of His "Lordship" for the "sanctification" of our spirit and our flesh. Do you see how these very Calvinist ideas are incorporated correctly into the sotierological model?
Often at the point of discipleship, though, the "sheep" go astray. :tear: We are not willing to nor are we able of ourselves to "foresake all" and follow Him. A disciple is a follower and a learner (spiritually growing, Eph 4:14-16) who progressively puts aside his life for Christ's. This is the "life" that JM's LS demands for salvation but which is really the life of "sanctification."
We used to say of this LS model that it makes Jesus our Example but not our Savior. Knowing that Christ is Savior does NOT "by itself" equate to "faith" ("faith that is alone is dead," right? Jas 2:12). If there is no "act of confirmation" (like "confess with thy mouth"), then your salvation is merely "water cooler" talk! Nice tidbits of information to make others think you are a "spiritual giant" when you are, possibly, a really a "spiritual midget." You don't really have the Lordship of Christ if you don't first have the Lordship of God.
skypair[/QUOTE]
Here's what I believed when I was saved. It sounds much different than the LS "formulary" although I can use some of Calvinism's terminology to describe it.
When I was saved, I believed that God, the Father, was Lord of all and would be my Lord if I accepted Christ. He is all wisdom and truth. I believed (and still do) that receiving Christ as Savior through repentance was the only way to 1) be reconciled to the Father, 2) to know what my Lord, God, wanted me to do with my life and 3) to receive the power (HS) to carry it out. Notice, though, salvation and regeneration and indwelling of the Spirit come AFTER repentance.
At the time of my conversion, the gospel did not have to do with Jesus as Lord but God as Lord. Since that day, I have come to learn that "reconciling" with God is called "justification." We are not reconciling with Jesus. Instead, God "gives" us to His Son as "disciples" just as LS appears to demand.
So the "ordo salutis" is this: God "draws" us to Savior Christ -- we "come" to Him repenting for reconciliation to God -- God "gives" us to Christ as disciples/followers of His "Lordship" for the "sanctification" of our spirit and our flesh. Do you see how these very Calvinist ideas are incorporated correctly into the sotierological model?
Often at the point of discipleship, though, the "sheep" go astray. :tear: We are not willing to nor are we able of ourselves to "foresake all" and follow Him. A disciple is a follower and a learner (spiritually growing, Eph 4:14-16) who progressively puts aside his life for Christ's. This is the "life" that JM's LS demands for salvation but which is really the life of "sanctification."
We used to say of this LS model that it makes Jesus our Example but not our Savior. Knowing that Christ is Savior does NOT "by itself" equate to "faith" ("faith that is alone is dead," right? Jas 2:12). If there is no "act of confirmation" (like "confess with thy mouth"), then your salvation is merely "water cooler" talk! Nice tidbits of information to make others think you are a "spiritual giant" when you are, possibly, a really a "spiritual midget." You don't really have the Lordship of Christ if you don't first have the Lordship of God.
skypair[/QUOTE]
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I think most Reformers don't know where to begin to answer this "free will" view of salvation mainly because instead of theone salvation of their "spiritual man," free will has in view one salvation of the soul and one salvation of the spirit of man.