Compatibilism (continuation from 5 point Arminianism thread)

[webdog]

I posed a question and was asked a question on the now closed thread and wanted to further the discussion branching off on the compatibilism branch...

Your analogy doesn't match up with "sufficient for all."

Let me ask you this, was the atonement ever intended to save those that die in unbelief, or has it always been intended to save believers?

Please answer the question assuming I have enough money to buy every person on the planet a gift.

To refresh I asked "Tell me, I didn't buy you a gift this Christmas and have no intention of giving you one. Is receiving a gift from me an option?"

I also asked "God has set eternity in the hearts of all men. Everyone desires eternal life yet not all choose it. Why is that? And before you tell me their hearts are sinful that desire was placed there by God himself"

If man chooses that which they desire the greatest, can there be a desire greater than one God has placed in us?

 

[12strings]

I posed a question and was asked a question on the now closed thread and wanted to further the discussion branching off on the compatibilism branch...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBH
Your analogy doesn't match up with "sufficient for all."

Let me ask you this, was the atonement ever intended to save those that die in unbelief, or has it always been intended to save believers?
Please answer the question assuming I have enough money to buy every person on the planet a gift.

Another question to answer for a non-cal is this: Did God INTEND to save everyone, but their unbelief damned them? That is, did God fail to fulfill his intentions?

To refresh I asked "Tell me, I didn't buy you a gift this Christmas and have no intention of giving you one. Is receiving a gift from me an option?"

I also asked "God has set eternity in the hearts of all men. Everyone desires eternal life yet not all choose it. Why is that? And before you tell me their hearts are sinful that desire was placed there by God himself"

If man chooses that which they desire the greatest, can there be a desire greater than one God has placed in us?

First, the verse does not say God set a "desire" for eternity in their hearts, but simply "set eternity." This could mean simply an awareness of eternity, not necessary an all-consuming desire to have eternal life with God. The simple answer to your final question is that they obviously desire something more than they desire God.

I would explain it this way: Every person since Adam has had eternity set in their hearts by virtue of being created in the image of God. Because of the fall, every thing once pure in us has been tainted, including this awareness, or even desire for eternity. Therefore, because of the fall, we no longer have ONLY eternity set on our hearts, but also many sinful desires.

 

[Winman]

I would say God made provision for everyone to be saved, but those who would be saved must submit to God by trusting in Jesus Christ alone.

It is really quite simple, if man does not have free will then men go to hell because God chose to pass over them and not regenerate them. In this view the inescapable conclusion is that God intended them to go to hell.

If man does have free will and the ability to trust Christ, then men go to hell because of their own willing rebellion, not because God intended them to go there.

Jesus said no man comes to the Father but by him. That is the rule, you can obey it and be saved, or rebel and be lost.

 

[Winman]

I posed a question and was asked a question on the now closed thread and wanted to further the discussion branching off on the compatibilism branch...


Please answer the question assuming I have enough money to buy every person on the planet a gift.

To refresh I asked "Tell me, I didn't buy you a gift this Christmas and have no intention of giving you one. Is receiving a gift from me an option?"

I also asked "God has set eternity in the hearts of all men. Everyone desires eternal life yet not all choose it. Why is that? And before you tell me their hearts are sinful that desire was placed there by God himself"

If man chooses that which they desire the greatest, can there be a desire greater than one God has placed in us?

You certainly have no choice to either receive or refuse a gift if a person never intended to offer you a gift.

And we do not always choose our greatest desire, if someone sticks a gun in my face and threatens to kill me unless I hand over my wallet, I will hand it over, it is my desire to live. But that is not my greatest desire, my greatest desire is that I not be robbed and this criminal arrested.

But as Mick Jagger sang, You don't always get what you want.

 

[Don]

Another question to answer for a non-cal is this: Did God INTEND to save everyone, but their unbelief damned them? That is, did God fail to fulfill his intentions?

Seems to me, the better way to address this is: Did God "want" everyone to be saved? Which scripture specifically says, yes (2 Pet 3:9-not willing that any should perish).

Your wording (did God fail) is a word-trap that is contradicted by scripture.

 

[Skandelon]

Seems to me, the better way to address this is: Did God "want" everyone to be saved? Which scripture specifically says, yes (2 Pet 3:9-not willing that any should perish).

Your wording (did God fail) is a word-trap that is contradicted by scripture.

That is right!

Even Calvinists acknowledge that God doesn't want his children to lie, but sometimes we do. Does that mean God fails? Obviously not. The desire of God for all to be saved is not without qualification. He will save all who freely choose to follow Him and he expresses His desire that all do just that. It really is not as complicated as some try to make it appear.

 

[JesusFan]

I posed a question and was asked a question on the now closed thread and wanted to further the discussion branching off on the compatibilism branch...


Please answer the question assuming I have enough money to buy every person on the planet a gift.

To refresh I asked "Tell me, I didn't buy you a gift this Christmas and have no intention of giving you one. Is receiving a gift from me an option?"

I also asked "God has set eternity in the hearts of all men. Everyone desires eternal life yet not all choose it. Why is that? And before you tell me their hearts are sinful that desire was placed there by God himself"

If man chooses that which they desire the greatest, can there be a desire greater than one God has placed in us?

Simplest way to answer this would be that Jesus death provided the atonement sufficient to save and redeem ALL of those who received Chrsit by placing faith in Him and His work on the Cross!

 

[webdog]

Simplest way to answer this would be that Jesus death provided the atonement sufficient to save and redeem ALL of those who received Chrsit by placing faith in Him and His work on the Cross!

...only you didn't answer the question

 

[webdog]

Another question to answer for a non-cal is this: Did God INTEND to save everyone, but their unbelief damned them? That is, did God fail to fulfill his intentions?

Not at all. His will is fulfilled, that is to save all those of faith in His Son.

Care to answer mine now?

First, the verse does not say God set a "desire" for eternity in their hearts, but simply "set eternity." This could mean simply an awareness of eternity, not necessary an all-consuming desire to have eternal life with God. The simple answer to your final question is that they obviously desire something more than they desire God.

Your answer is not orthodox and does not fit with the Hebrew nor the context. The word we translate as eternity is literally the time beyond the present age, for ever, always, continuous existence, perpetual everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity. No scholar I have ever read has said what you have said. The usage of heart hermeneutically implies desire.

 

[JesusFan]

...only you didn't answer the question

What was the aspect of it not answered though?

 

[webdog]

What was the aspect of it not answered though?

The entire thing. Go to post 1 for the question.

 

[convicted1]

Simplest way to answer this would be that Jesus death provided the atonement sufficient to save and redeem ALL of those who received Chrsit by placing faith in Him and His work on the Cross!

Well, Brother, you have this wrong(according to y'alls interpretation). Y'all hold to Limited Atonement, meaning that the atonement Christ made on the cross was for His "elect" only. If this rings true, then the "non-elect" are really kept in darkness from birth unto death, with no Light shining unto them to bring them to Christ. So, as Brother Webdog stated in the OP, if the "non-elect" don't even get a "sniff" at the Atoning blood of the Lamb, then the gift was never intended, let alone given, to them.

 

[12strings]

Which brings us back to the question, If God "Intends" to do something, and it doesn't happen, did God fail?

I know the fail language is not in the bible, but neither is this word "intend".

 

[webdog]

Which brings us back to the question, If God "Intends" to do something, and it doesn't happen, did God fail?

I know the fail language is not in the bible, but neither is this word "intend".

Already answered for you back on page 1.

God doesn't "intend" for you to sin...you sin...did God fail?

 

[webdog]

You certainly have no choice to either receive or refuse a gift if a person never intended to offer you a gift.

And we do not always choose our greatest desire, if someone sticks a gun in my face and threatens to kill me unless I hand over my wallet, I will hand it over, it is my desire to live. But that is not my greatest desire, my greatest desire is that I not be robbed and this criminal arrested.

But as Mick Jagger sang, You don't always get what you want.

You gave a good example why compatibilism is false. The greatest desire is not always an option to choose.

 

[JesusFan]

Well, Brother, you have this wrong(according to y'alls interpretation). Y'all hold to Limited Atonement, meaning that the atonement Christ made on the cross was for His "elect" only. If this rings true, then the "non-elect" are really kept in darkness from birth unto death, with no Light shining unto them to bring them to Christ. So, as Brother Webdog stated in the OP, if the "non-elect" don't even get a "sniff" at the Atoning blood of the Lamb, then the gift was never intended, let alone given, to them.

Would those to whom the Gospel message was sent though even care to respond if they did not have the means naturally within them to so such? Would they be inclined to?

fault lies NOT in either the Cross/Gospel. or Will of God, its in the darkness of unregernerated sinful Men!

 

[webdog]

Bump. Amazing these sort of threads hardly get responded to.

 

[jbh28]

Found your question...

I posed a question and was asked a question on the now closed thread and wanted to further the discussion branching off on the compatibilism branch...


Please answer the question assuming I have enough money to buy every person on the planet a gift.

To refresh I asked "Tell me, I didn't buy you a gift this Christmas and have no intention of giving you one. Is receiving a gift from me an option?"

What do you mean by "no intention of giving you one"? Do you mean that you have no intention of giving me on if I come to get it? If by that, then it's a faulty analogy. God has full intention(and will) save all that come to him. If you mean that you have no intention of giving me one because you know I will reject your gift, then that's a different picture. Another problem is you "didn't buy the gift." Christ has made the purchase.

I also asked "God has set eternity in the hearts of all men. Everyone desires eternal life yet not all choose it. Why is that? And before you tell me their hearts are sinful that desire was placed there by God himself"

God is not the author of sin, so no. 2. They may desire eternal life, but don't desire to come to Christ.

If man chooses that which they desire the greatest, can there be a desire greater than one God has placed in us?

Are you teaching that God puts evil desires in us? I of course don't teach that.