Condemnation and the Christian Believer

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Grahame: So if we are Christians we must banish from our minds that the law has anything to do with us in the way of condemnation. For we are dead to the law and married to Christ as the apostle puts it. Not only that, but although we do sin, nevertheless we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin also

HP: Try as you may, this is simply not the case. It would be the case IF you consistently walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Too often believers yield to the flesh and walk after it. If one believes there is no condemnation just on the account that you have at one time given your life to the Lord, such a one is either deceived or about to get an eye opener. When we sin as believers, condemnation in act does set in. It is called conviction. You can quote all the scripture you so desire, but the condemnation and conviction will not leave you until either you get your heart right again with God or find that you have quenched the Spirit to the point that He no longer strives with your heart.

When we are walking in the light as He is in the light, there is no condemnation and we are dead to the law. Just as when one is abiding by all the laws of the road, we do not have to worry about getting a ticket, for we are in compliance to the law therefore we are not subject to its penalties. Just the same, when we violate the law, regardless of our past, we come back under the condemnation of the law and must fulfill the conditions of repentance and faith, doing our first works over again in order to enter once again to a right relationship with God and a sure hope of eternal life. God has not so designed our assurance of eternal salvation so as to grant us full assurance of our final standing before Him while we are holding a conscience that is not void of offense.

Listen carefully to these Scriptural passages. Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Is there not one on this list desiring to challenge the points being made? I would like to hear one individual, claiming to be a Christian, that would deny ever having condemnation present subsequent to entering into their hope of eternal life. If we can find one, we will have our first case of absolute perfection demonstrated before us.

I can assure you that I make no such claim for myself.

 

[Helen]

None of us is perfect, but any of us who is born again in the Spirit is indwelt by that Spirit and is safe with Christ forever.

Consequences of sin? Yes, we certainly experience those, but condemnation? No, we are no longer judged by the law even though it still is effective in our lives.

My life is hid with Christ in God.

And that's that.

 

[BobRyan]

1Cor 6
5 I say [b] this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,[/b]
6 but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

Here we have found a harsh, critical severe condemnation of the church. No escaping it. No editing it. No denying it. This point can not be refuted.

Clearly Paul is “speaking to the shame of the Christians in Corinth”. He accuses them of defrauding the saints – defrauding each other. He claims they are not wise enough – mature enough – righteous enough to settle their own disputes. The focus of Paul’s argument is FAR from “Have no worries, trouble not your heart – there is nothing here to really worry about”.

The entire focus of this chapter is to “get their attention” warn them of danger. Judge them as being in error and demand that they return to a right course of action.

This point is incredibly obvious. It is the context, purpose, focus for the chapter and the following warning Paul gives – is given to demonstrate” the severity of the problem. He is not “changing subjects” or coming up with a “comforting thought”.

1 Cor 6
9 Or [b]do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom[/b] of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


Paul appeals to the fact that a life of rebellion does NOT result in the inheritance of eternal life! This is the way he chooses to highlight his point about their needing to repent of the sin he has just charged them with.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Helen: None of us is perfect, but any of us who is born again in the Spirit is indwelt by that Spirit and is safe with Christ forever.

Consequences of sin? Yes, we certainly experience those, but condemnation? No, we are no longer judged by the law even though it still is effective in our lives.

My life is hid with Christ in God.

HP: We are finite and as a result are not perfect in an absolute sense. Just the same, cannot we have a conscience void of offense before God and man and as such be morally pure before God? Was Paul deceived when he testified as to having such a conscience?

How can the law still be effective in our lives if we are not judged by it? Possibly I am not understanding what you mean.

There is a vast difference in saying that we are not perfect, and saying we have sin in our lives, or that we MUST have sin in our lives, or that we ALL must have sin in our lives, don’t you agree?

 

[Helen]

Pilgrim, there is a difference between consequences and condemnation (judgment).

Here is an example some may recognize as I have used it before on BB. When my oldest son was somewhere around six or seven, we gave him his first two-wheeler (without training wheels). We lived on a hill. Daddy was at work. I instructed Scott to wait until his sister woke up and I would take him down to the school yard, not far away, to practice riding his bike.

He disobeyed and rode it down the hill while Julie was asleep. And he munched it totally. He was scraped, bruised, bleeding, in tears, and the bike was ruined.

All of that was consequence. He knew he had done wrong. He was so sorry. I forgave him but also refused to buy him a new bike for quite awhile.

He suffered consequences; he was punished with no more bicycle; but he was and is still my son and has grown up to be a strong Christian young man who holds Bible studies at his home weekly.

We sin. We are sorry. We are forgiven. We are disciplined. We suffer consequences. But those of us who are born again in Christ are still His and the promise is there that He will complete the good work He has begun in us.

I count on that.

The law of gravity was still effective in his life. Our household law was still effective in his life. But he was most certainly not disinherited!

 

[Martin]

Is there not one on this list desiring to challenge the points being made? I would like to hear one individual, claiming to be a Christian, that would deny ever having condemnation present subsequent to entering into their hope of eternal life. If we can find one, we will have our first case of absolute perfection demonstrated before us.

I can assure you that I make no such claim for myself.

==Your claims seem to be based upon subjective feelings and not objective Scripture. Salvation is not a feeling. Feelings can come and go and can be caused by a wide variety of things (lack of sleep, poor diet, depression, lack of information, etc). You did at one point cite two verses from Ezekiel. However you did not discuss the context of those verses (etc). Used in that way those verses really become nothing more than proof texts which, at the end of the day, prove nothing. Each verse must be understood in its historical, grammatical context. I could pull verse after verse to show you that your understanding of the verses in Ezekiel is wrong but what would it prove? Nothing. Why? Because it would be nothing but proof texts. God's Word must be understood in context. This is one reason why these type discussions/debates go no place. Everybody is just throwing proof texts around and there is little careful examination of the Scriptures going on.

 

[BobRyan]

hmmm ... I think I found an example of "condemnation" for one who is a Christian --

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=945214&postcount=4

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ps 106:3 Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

HP: I believe I have found yet another verse which expresses no condemnation for at least certain believers.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Helen: Pilgrim, there is a difference between consequences and condemnation (judgment).

HP: One of the consequences of sin in anyone’s life is condemnation. Certainly we do not generally experience final judgment at the moment we sin, although I believe some have, just the same every sinner, whether saved prior to or not either has condemnation over their sin in the form of conviction, or they are deceived. It is the faithfulness of the Holy Spirit that convicts us of sin by way of inner condemnation.

Helen: Here is an example some may recognize as I have used it before on BB. …
All of that was consequence. He knew he had done wrong. He was so sorry. I forgave him but also refused to buy him a new bike for quite awhile.

HP: Tightwad. :laugh: (just kidding!)

Helen: but he was and is still my son and has grown up to be a strong Christian young man who holds Bible studies at his home weekly.

HP: Praise the Lord!!

Helen: We sin. We are sorry. We are forgiven. We are disciplined. We suffer consequences. But those of us who are born again in Christ are still His and the promise is there that He will complete the good work He has begun in us.

HP: This point, although true, needs IMO some clarification. I as well lay hold in that promise and have on many occasions. It is a precious promise that we as believers should never take lightly. I thank God for that promise. It gives me hope and strength in time of need! Just the same, I believe it would be presumptuous of me to lay hold of that promise is my heart is set presumptuously upon having my own selfish way, as if to say I will go ahead and sin and trust in God to preserve me, or even though it is in my heart to continue to do that which I know I have received Holy Spirit conviction for yet determined to continue on selfishly ignoring God’s Spirit. If I am to lay hold of that promise, or when I lay hold of that promise, I believe it is a must to be in an obedient or repentant state. I am reminded of David’s prayer. “Oh Lord keep back thy servant from presumptuous sin.”

Helen: The law of gravity was still effective in his life. Our household law was still effective in his life. But he was most certainly not disinherited!

HP: First the relationship that exist between ourselves and God is one of faith, and is not of the same nature as that of parent to child. We can indeed, in some limited ways, compare the two, but just the same, they are not one in the same. Every person alive could claim to be a child of God in a sense, but in another sense some are children of their father the devil. That is not to say that once a child of the devil always a child of the devil, is it? Neither can one say that because I have right relationship with God today I cannot forsake and abandon that relationship and backslide into perdition. Just as God disinherited some rebellious Jews that were indeed His children, divorcing them for leaving their first estate, He can divorce us as well. We are repeatedly warned to stay focused with a repentant heart, obeying the Lord and walking in all His commandments. It is to gender folly to believe otherwise. We MUST stay faithful till the end. We will not stay faithful in our own strength, but neither will we stay faithful apart from some effort on our part. God desires for us to mature in the faith and be strong and obedient soldiers of the cross. That takes perseverance and effort on our part. We must walk and remain holy before God depending on Him for strength, without which no man shall see Him.

 

[Brother Bob]

Amen HP; Preach it!!!! You can call me Bob, not Ed; I figure is you keep first part of your post you won't have to worry about the last part.

 

[Amy.G]

Just as God disinherited some rebellious Jews that were indeed His children, divorcing them for leaving their first estate, He can divorce us as well.

HP, are you saying that we can lose our salvation?

 

[donnA]

God says divorce is a sin, why would God choose to sin?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: HP, are you saying that we can lose our salvation?

HP: How can I lose something I have yet to gain in its absolute sense? I can lose my standing before God, I can lose my faith in God, but my salvation is still in progress.

I can say that I have entered into a hope of eternal life, and say by faith that I am confident that He which has begun a work in me will see it through to completion, but my life is not over yet and I have yet to stand before the God of all ages. I have not heard those words I long for, i.e. "Well done thou good and faithful servant." When I here those words, all faith will fade away as a morning fog is lifted and my faith will be turned to sight. Until then, God has told me to examine my life, be obedient to His commandments with a heart of love towards God and my fellowman, walking in the light as He is in the light. He has promised IF I do these things I shall never fall away.

Does the possibility exist that I could reject the faith I have, turn from the Lord, and go my selfish way? Absolutely. Do I worry about that happening? Not as long as I keep walking in the light. Do I have the confidence that my rewards in heaven are waiting for me when in a state harboring unrepented sin? My only hope in such a state is to repent and turn again to Christ for forgiveness, and in faith believing that God has once again forgiven me. God will indeed abundantly pardon and set my feet on the path once again IF I turn in repentance and faith.

I believe Scripture represents our present state as believers to be one of probation, a state where God requires obedience to His Word. I believe this world is a testing ground to prove ourselves faithful and obedient. It is not a matter of losing my salvation or not, it is a matter of will I arrive at my destination as a pilgrim on my way to heaven setting the course I am now currently on.

If I say that I am on my way to Kansas City, heading south out of Dallas, I would hope that someone would warn me that I am heading in the wrong direction. If I say that I have faith I will get to KC heading south, I would hope someone would warn me that my walk and my faith are at antipodes, and that faith alone will not help me reach my destination. I must be heading in the right direction to have sure faith that I will safely reach the planned destination.

In my Christian walk I have my eyes focused on the destination of heaven. Scripture tells me that I must continue in faith until the end in obedience in order to see that destination as planned. Sin can set in like a fog and cloud my vision as to which direction I am heading. My job is to walk in willing obedience, allowing the Spirit of God to guide and direct my path. “As we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin.” Note the conditional quality of this promise. My job is simply to keep the conditions God has set forth as necessary to reach my goal in willing obedience relying on the strength He has promised to give as I look to Him. IF I do, I will indeed be found in Him in that last day. That is my hope!

 

[BobRyan]

hmmm ... I think I found an example of "condemnation" for one who is a Christian --

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=945214&postcount=4

Yep I did -

 

[BobRyan]

HP, are you saying that we can lose our salvation?

Matt 18 says it when it teaches "forgiveness revoked"
John 15 says it when it teaches "cast out of the vine of Christ"
Romans 11 says it when it teaches "removed from Christ like the fallen Jews"

But few people here would admit to it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DQuixote]

Thank you Helen, Martin, and Amy, for shining some light in this darkness. If we aren't saved now, we need to get that way. If we are saved now, He sustains us. Although we sin from time to time, we do not practice sin, or dwell in sin; we are grieved when we grieve the Holy Spirit. We humble ourselves before Him, having read 1 John 1:9. We know that "getting saved again" is spurious doctrine, not found in Holy Writ. We know that OT passages fade into nothingness in the light of His NT Word. Thank God that when He looks at our sin He hears the cry of Jesus at the Cross, "Tetelestai!! Paid in Full!!" Keep on keeping on, secure in Christ Jesus, serving Him daily, telling others about our wonderful savior.

 

[Amy.G]

Thank you Helen, Martin, and Amy, for shining some light in this darkness. If we aren't saved now, we need to get that way. If we are saved now, He sustains us. Although we sin from time to time, we do not practice sin, or dwell in sin; we are grieved when we grieve the Holy Spirit. We humble ourselves before Him, having read 1 John 1:9. We know that "getting saved again" is spurious doctrine, not found in Holy Writ. We know that OT passages fade into nothingness in the light of His NT Word. Thank God that when He looks at our sin He hears the cry of Jesus at the Cross, "Tetelestai!! Paid in Full!!" Keep on keeping on, secure in Christ Jesus, serving Him daily, telling others about our wonderful savior.

Amen! That's why it's called GRACE! :1_grouphug:

 

[Shiloh]

Some here can't see the forest for the trees. They simply will not believe God when He tells us we can't be cast out, Jn.6:37, plucked out Jn.10:28 or fall out Jude 24. They like BobR will take Scripture and twist it to try and prove their perverted doctrines. These people are, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Some here can't see the forest for the trees. They simply will not believe God when He tells us we can't be cast out, Jn.6:37, plucked out Jn.10:28 or fall out Jude 24. They like BobR will take Scripture and twist it to try and prove their perverted doctrines. These people are,

Providing the person is truly 'in Christ', that person cannot be cast out, plucked out, or fall out.

But we must remember Judas Iscariat was one of the Apostles, yet he was not saved.

Many of His disciples followed Him no more according to John 6:66 (significance?)

Many, as Judas did, will company with believers putting on a cloak of righteousness over the filth that is in their hearts... and fool many into thinking they are saved... but they are not.

Jesus said we would know the tree by its fruit. Sooner or later, the fruit will reveal who that person truly is a servant to.