Constitution and Christian principles

It's absolutely true. The vast majority of the founders were evangelical Christians. There are a lot of reasons why churches may not incorporate - to be opposed to that does not make one a secularist.

 

I don't think so. I believe the vast majority were Deists - far removed from evangelical thought.

Also, David Barton's historical analysis is weak; it's similar to creationists and science.

 

It wasn't. It was based on the democratic and republican principles of pagan Greece and Rome, liberally mixed with Enlightenment-based political philosophy antithetical to biblical teachings about government. Many of the Founding fathers were skeptics and rationalists, Deists, and Luciferians (Freemasons).

 

It wasn't. It was based on the democratic and republican principles of pagan Greece and Rome, liberally mixed with Enlightenment-based political philosophy antithetical to biblical teachings about government. Many of the Founding fathers were skeptics and rationalists, Deists, and Luciferians (Freemasons). </font>[/QUOTE]Look closer, Tauf. As a teacher of history, I've learned that many myths exist. One is that the founding fathers were deists, etc. There was only one full-fledged Deist in the group, Thomas Paine, who was not, in any case, all that significant compared to the others. Ben Franklin was certainly not orthodox, but he believed in Divine Providence, which is hardly a Deist position. Jefferson had some doubts about the deity of Christ, but was to his dying day a member of his local Episcopal congregation and was on the Vestry committee.

A lot of the Deist myths are based on opponents of these men who accused them of being Deist (like the red scare of the 1950s).

Washington was an orthodox episcopalian, and the Adams boys were quite devout congregationalists. Witherspoon, who signed the Declaration of Independence, was president of Princeton, and was a strong evangelical Calvinist.

As for the revolution being based on the enlightenment, that is also problematic. Certainly there was some influence, but there was at least as much puritan influence from Rutherford, etc.

Look up the English Bill of Rights at the Yale Law School's Avalon Project. This document, written in 1689, long before the enlightenment, reads like a rough draft to our Bill of Rights from 102 years later.

Our revolution was not a radical overthrow of the social or governmental order. It was a conservative revolution against the abuse of executive privilege (by King George and his men) and a natural continuation of the Puritan revolution and the Glorious Revolution of 1689.

"The Glorious Cause," by Robert Middlekauf, won the Pulitzer. It is a graduate level college text used at many secular universities. Middlekauf devotes much of the second chapter to establishing the influence of the Great Awakening on the Revolution, calling the Revolutionary generation "The Children of the Twice Born."

I also recommend "The Rewriting of America's History" by Katherine Millard.

[ October 17, 2003, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Major B ]

 

It wasn't. It was based on the democratic and republican principles of pagan Greece and Rome, liberally mixed with Enlightenment-based political philosophy antithetical to biblical teachings about government. Many of the Founding Fathers were skeptics and rationalists, Deists, and Luciferians (Freemasons). </font>[/QUOTE]Look closer, Tauf. As a teacher of history, I've learned that many myths exist. One is that the founding fathers were deists, etc. There was only one full-fledged Deist in the group, Thomas Paine, who was not, in any case, all that significant compared to the others. Ben Franklin was certainly not orthodox, but he believed in Divine Providence, which is hardly a Deist position. Jefferson had some doubts about the deity of Christ, but was to his dying day a member of his local Episcopal congregation and was on the Vestry committee.

A lot of the Deist myths are based on opponents of these men who accused them of being Deist (like the red scare of the 1950s).

Washington was an orthodox episcopalian, and the Adams boys were quite devout congregationalists. Witherspoon, who signed the Declaration of Independence, was president of Princeton, and was a strong evangelical Calvinist.

As for the revolution being based on the enlightenment, that is also problematic. Certainly there was some influence, but there was at least as much puritan influence from Rutherford, etc.

Look up the English Bill of Rights at the Yale Law School's Avalon Project. This document, written in 1689, long before the enlightenment, reads like a rough draft to our Bill of Rights from 102 years later.

Our revolution was not a radical overthrow of the social or governmental order. It was a conservative revolution against the abuse of executive privilege (by King George and his men) and a natural continuation of the Puritan revolution and the Glorious Revolution of 1689.

"The Glorious Cause," by Robert Middlekauf, won the Pulitzer. It is a graduate level college text used at many secular universities. Middlekauf devotes much of the second chapter to establishing the influence of the Great Awakening on the Revolution, calling the Revolutionary generation "The Children of the Twice Born."

I also recommend "The Rewriting of America's History" by Katherine Millard.</font>[/QUOTE]Locke, Rousseau, Montesquieu, all had considerable influence on the development of the Constitution. As the Enlightenment was a 17th- as well as 18th-century phenomenon, I fail to see on the face of it why the English Bill of Rights would be considered to predate it, even if some of the major thinkers had not been born or published yet.

Prof. Manuel of Brandeis has written that Benjamin Franklin held a personal creed that was almost identical to the 5 points of Deism established by Herbert. Manuel also notes that critics of Deism often tried to force its adherents into a position of denying divine providence that few Deists held so strictly.

I've used the Avalon Project documents for my students in college history classes. They're very useful indeed.

I hope you realize I was only hoping to serve as a corrective, not denying Christian influences on the Constitution, but attempting to counter their near-constant exaggeration.

 

It may be that some Christians overstate the influence of Christianity on the leadership of the Revolution, but that itself is a corrective to secondary school texts which barely, if at all, even mention the Christian influence.

The character, religious beliefs, and ideas of the men of the 17th century were vastly different from the ideas of the 18th century enlightenment. This is particularly true of Samuel Rutherford. I think it would be a novel idea to state that the enlightenment had any influence at all on the English Bill of Rights or the Glorious Revolution that prompted that document. These were the culmination of hundreds of years of struggle against absolute executive power in England, and the Bill reflects mainly Protestant Reformation and English Puritan ideas.

Furhtermore, the foot soldiers, company commanders, regimental commanders, etc., of the Revolution were much more influenced by the pulpit than by any other intellectual influence.

Myths abound; the Masons claim Washington, who apprently was a nominal member, but can only produce actual evidence of his attendance at a couple of meetings. The delegates to the Second Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention were not a pack of Deists and infidels. Most of them were Church-going professing believers. And, the correction does not need to be in the direction of minimiaing the influence of Christianity, but in acknowledgement of Christianity's majority influence. Again, the high school texts I have seen are sadly lacking in this area.

 

It is easy to debate back & forth with general statements and say the founders were either Christians or deists. Perhaps if we put names to the discussion it will not be quite so subjective. Here are some "founders":

Signers of the Declaration of Independence
</font>

• Delaware: George Read, Caesar Rodney, Thomas McKean
  Pennsylvania: George Clymer; Benjamin Franklin; Robert Morris; John Morton; Benjamin Rush; George Ross; James Smith; James Wilson; George Taylor
  Massachusetts: John Adams; Samuel Adams; John Hancock; Robert Treat Paine; Elbridge Gerry
  New Hampshire: Joshiah Bartlett; Wiliam Whipple; Matthew Thornton
  Rhode Island: Stephen Hopkins: William Ellery
  New York: Lewis Morris: Philip Livingston; Grancis Lewis; William Floyd
  Georgia: Button Gwinnett; Lyman Hall; George Walton
  Virginia: Richard Henry Lee; Francis Lightfoot Lee; Carter Braxton; Benjamin Harrison; Thomas Jefferson; George Wythe; Thomas Nelson, Jr.
  North Carolina: William Hooper; John Penn; Joseph Hewes
  South Carolina: Edward Rutledge: Arthur Middleton; Thomas Lynch, Jr.; Thomas Heyward, Jr.
  New Jersey: Abraham Clark: John Hart; Francis Hopkinson; Richard Stockton; John Witherspoon
  Connecticut: Samuel Huntington; Roger Sherman; William Williams; Oliver Wolcott
  Maryland: Charles Carroll: Samuel Chase; Thomas Stone; William Paca</font>

The Signers of the Declaration of Independence - some info here, though not that much on the faiths of the founders

Constitutional Convention delegates
</font>

• Connecticut: William Samuel Johnson; Roger Sherman; Oliver Ellsworth*
  Delaware: George Read; Gunning Bedford, Jr.; John Dickinson; Richard Bassett; Jacob Broom
  Georgia: William Few; Abraham Baldwin; William Houston*; William L. Pierce*
  Maryland: James McHenry; Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer; Daniel Carroll; Luther Martin*
  John F. Mercer*
  Massachusetts: Nathaniel Gorham; Rufus King; Elbridge Gerry*; Caleb Strong*
  New Hampshire: John Langdon; Nicholas Gilman
  New Jersey: William Livingston; David Brearly; William Paterson; Jonathan Dayton; William C. Houston*
  New York: Alexander Hamilton; John Lansing, Jr.*; Robert Yates*
  North Carolina: William Blount; Richard Dobbs Spaight; Hugh Williamson; William R. Davie*
  Alexander Martin*
  Pennsylvania: Benjamin Franklin; Thomas Mifflin; Robert Morris; George Clymer; Thomas Fitzsimons; Jared Ingersoll; James Wilson; Gouverneur Morris
  South Carolina: John Rutledge; Charles Cotesworth Pinckney; Charles Pinckney; Pierce Butler
  Rhode Island: **
  Virginia: John Blair; James Madison Jr.; George Washington; George Mason*; James McClurg*; Edmund J. Randolph*; George Wythe*</font>

*did not sign the Constitution
**did not send any delegates to the Constitutional Convention

America's Founding Fathers

First Five Presidents (under present Constitution)
George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe

This gives us some actual names of "Founding Fathers" whose faith can be researched to see whether they were practicing Christians, nominal Christians, deists, Unitarians, atheists or whatever. I have no problem including the names of John Locke, Thomas Paine, and others, but there should also be no objection to including the likes of Roger Williams, John Leland, and Isaac Backus.

 

Found this site - God & Country: Religious Views of the Founding Fathers, Presidents, and Vice Presidents

Religious Affiliation of the Signers of Declaration of Independence
</font>

• George Read - Episcopalian
  Caesar Rodney - Episcopalian
  Thomas McKean - Presbyterian
  George Clymer - ?
  Benjamin Franklin - none (deist)
  Robert Morris - Episcopalian
  John Morton - ?
  Benjamin Rush - Presbyterian, then Universalist
  George Ross - ?
  James Smith - ?
  James Wilson - ?
  George Taylor - Presbyterian, then Episcopalian
  John Adams - Unitarian
  Samuel Adams - Congregationalist
  John Hancock - Congregationalist
  Robert Treat Paine - Congregationalist
  Elbridge Gerry - Episcopalian
  Joshiah Bartlett - Congregationalist
  Wiliam Whipple - Congregationalist
  Matthew Thornton - ?
  Stephen Hopkins - ?
  William Ellery - Congregationalist
  Lewis Morris - ?
  Philip Livingston - Presbyterian
  Grancis Lewis - ?
  William Floyd - Presbyterian
  Button Gwinnett - Episcopalian
  Lyman Hall - Congregationalist
  George Walton - Anglican
  Richard Henry Lee - ?
  Francis Lightfoot Lee - ?
  Carter Braxton - Episcopalian
  Benjamin Harrison - ?
  Thomas Jefferson - none (deist)
  George Wythe - Episcopalian
  Thomas Nelson, Jr. - ?
  William Hooper - Episcopalian
  John Penn - ?
  Joseph Hewes - ?
  Edward Rutledge - Anglican
  Arthur Middleton - ?
  Thomas Lynch, Jr. - ?
  Thomas Heyward, Jr. - ?
  Abraham Clark - Presbyterian
  John Hart - Presbyterian
  Francis Hopkinson - Episcopalian
  Richard Stockton - ?
  John Witherspoon - Presbyterian (minister)
  Samuel Huntington - Congregationalist
  Roger Sherman - Congregationalist
  William Williams - Congregationalist
  Oliver Wolcott - Congregationalist
  Charles Carroll - Roman Catholic
  Samuel Chase - Episcopalian
  Thomas Stone - Episcopalian
  William Paca - Episcopalian</font>

Comments -
</font>

1. This appears to be a non-biased resource</font>
2. Religious affiliation doesn't necessarily translate into personal views</font>
3. 56 names - not one Baptist, not even from Rhode Island</font>
4. 19 unknown or unsure affiliation, 15 Episcopalian or Anglican, 11 Congregationalist, 6 Presbyterian, 2 unaffiliated, 1 Unitarian, 1 Universalist, & 1 Roman Catholic</font>

 

From God & Country

Religious Affiliation of the Delegates to the Constitutional Convention

William Samuel Johnson - Presbyterian, Episcopalian
Roger Sherman - Congregationalist
Oliver Ellsworth* - Congregationalist
George Read - Episcopalian
Gunning Bedford, Jr. - Presbyterian
John Dickinson - Quaker, Episcopalian
Richard Bassett - Methodist
Jacob Broom - Lutheran
William Few - Methodist
Abraham Baldwin - Congregationalist, Presbyterian (licensed minister)
William Houston* - Episcopalian
William L. Pierce* - Episcopalian
James McHenry - Presbyterian
Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer - Episcopalian
Daniel Carroll - Roman Catholic
Luther Martin* - Episcopalian
John F. Mercer* - Episcopalian
Nathaniel Gorham - Congregationalist
Rufus King - Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry* - Episcopalian
Caleb Strong* - Congregationalist
John Langdon - Congregationalist
Nicholas Gilman - Congregationalist
William Livingston - Presbyterian
David Brearly - Episcopalian
William Paterson - Presbyterian
Jonathan Dayton - Presbyterian, Episcopalian
William C. Houston* - Presbyterian
Alexander Hamilton - Episcopalian
John Lansing, Jr.* - Dutch Reformed
Robert Yates* - Dutch Reformed
William Blount - Episcopalian, Presbyterian
Richard Dobbs Spaight - Episcopalian
Hugh Williamson - ? licensed Presbyterian minister, then maybe deist later
William R. Davie* - Presbyterian
Alexander Martin* - Presbyterian
Benjamin Franklin - none
Thomas Mifflin - Quaker, then Lutheran
Robert Morris - Episcopalian
George Clymer - ?
Thomas Fitzsimons - Roman Catholic
Jared Ingersoll - Presbyterian
James Wilson - ?
Gouverneur Morris - Episcopalian
John Rutledge - Episcopalian
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney - Episcopalian
Charles Pinckney - Episcopalian
Pierce Butler - Episcopalian
John Blair - Presbyterian, Episcopalian
James Madison Jr. - Episcopalian
George Washington - Episcopalian
George Mason* - Episcopalian
James McClurg* - Presbyterian
Edmund J. Randolph* - Episcopalian
George Wythe* - Episcopalian

Comments -
</font>

1. See above post</font>
2. Did not sign, some due to absence, some to disagreement *</font>
3. 8 duplications with signers of DoI</font>
4. 55 names, again no Baptists</font>
5. 21 Episcopalian, 9 Presbyterian, 6 Congregationalist, 6 doubly affiliated or changed, 3 unknown or unsure affiliation, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Lutheran, 2 Methodist, 2 Roman Catholic, 1 no affiliation</font>
6. A little more religious diversity, adding Dutch Reformed, Lutheran & Methodist</font>

 

From God & Country

Religious Affiliation of the First Ten Presidents of the United States (under the present Constitution)

George Washington - Episcopalian
John Adams - Unitarian
Thomas Jefferson - none (deist)
James Madison - Episcopalian
James Monroe - Episcopalian
John Quincy Adams - Unitarian
Andrew Jackson - Presbyterian
Martin Van Buren - Dutch Reformed
William Henry Harrison - Episcopalian
John Tyler - Episcopalian

 

Delegates to the Constitutional Convention who were Masons

Gunning Bedford, Jr.
Jacob Broom
John Dickinson
John F. Mercer
James McHenry
Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer
Daniel Carroll
Rufus King
Nicholas Gilman
David Brearly
Jonathan Dayton
William Paterson
William Blount
William R. Davie
John Blair
George Washington

 

God & Country lists these as Other Founders.

Religious Affiliation of Other Founders

Ethan Allen - none
Nathan Hale - ?
Patrick Henry - ?
John Jay - Episcopalian
James Otis - ?
Thomas Paine - none (a deist, not an atheist as some think)
Paul Revere - ?
Haym Salomon - Jewish
Noah Webster - ?

 

b]Religious Affiliation of Other Founders[/b]


Patrick Henry -Presbyterian. He learned his speaking style at revivalist Presbyterian meetings (Source: The Founding Fathers Video Series, History Channel)

James Otis - Congregational; he had to be, since he was a government official and the Congregational Church was established in MASS until the 1800s

Paul Revere - Congregationalist, according to Fishers biography.

 

Jefferson was not a Deist. He was a watery Episcopalian with some doctrinal doubts, but he was in regular attendance at his local Episcopal church until he died.

 

Which means nothing as far as their religious beliefs. Many of these fellows (G.W. for instance, who can only be documented to have attended a couple of lodge meetings) may have been "joiners." Fisher points out in his bio of Paul Revere that he joined all kinds of groups, as a socially-climbing and civic minded man.

And, even though I don't like this, you would not want to know how many Southern Baptist deacons and pastors are Masons today. I've been told by someone who knew him personally that Herschel Hobbs was a Mason!

 

For more details on Patrick Henry, see Patrick Henry Timeline

I dug out my copy of William Wirt's 1850 biography of our former governor. Patrick Henry was baptized as a member of the Anglican Church, but attended Presbyterian meetings, but never joined.

Henry's sister, Elizabeth Henry at one time owned the land my house now sits on. She is quite the big deal in these parts. At any rate, Madame Elizabeth Henry Russell (she was married to Rev. War Brig Gen. William Campbell, and after his death to Rev. War Brig. Gen. William Russell) was quite the follower of Francis Asbury and did much to promote the Methodist Church, hosting Asbury on several occasions. Madame Russell also let it be known that anyone who was anyone was expected to join the Methodist church. She donate the property for the first Methodist Church in our humble little town, and it was named Elizabeth Chapel. This church was reoganized in 1894 and is now known as Madam Russell Methodist Church (Actually the stone over the door says, "Mme Russell Church, M. E. South"

 

Stephen

I'll give you a hearty Amen for that last post.

Jeff.