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Constitution doesn’t mandate birthright citizenship

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
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Parts of Donald Trump’s immigration plan may raise serious constitutional questions, but the part that launched a media firestorm—ending birthright citizenship for the children of illegal aliens—does not.

The Constitution’s Fourteenth Amendment does not confer citizenship on the children of foreigners, whether legal or illegal.

Media commentators have gotten this issue dead wrong. Fox News’s Judge Andrew Napolitano says the Fourteenth Amendment is “very clear” that its Citizenship Clause commands that any child born in America is automatically an American citizen.

That’s not the law. It has never been the law.

Under current immigration law—found at 8 U.S.C. § 1401(a)—a baby born on American soil to a (1) foreign ambassador, (2) head of state, or (3) foreign military prisoner is not an American citizen.

How is that possible? This is from the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1952 (INA), as it has been amended over the years. Is this federal law unconstitutional?

No. The Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment provides: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” Today’s debate turns on the six words, “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.”

As captured in the movie Lincoln, the Thirteenth Amendment—which ended slavery—barely passed Congress because many Democrats supported slavery, and it was only through the political genius and resolve of Republican President Abraham Lincoln that the proposed amendment passed Congress in 1865, sending it to the states for ratification.

In 1866, Congress passed a Civil Rights Act to guarantee black Americans their constitutional rights as citizens, claiming that the Constitution’s Thirteenth Amendment gave Congress the power to pass such laws. But many voted against the Civil Rights Act because they thought it exceeded Congress’s powers, and even many of its supporters doubted its legality.

The Civil Rights Act included a definition for national citizenship, to guarantee that former slaves would forever be free of the infamous Dred Scott decision which declared black people were not American citizens. That provision read, “All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States.”

That was the original meaning of the jurisdiction language in the Fourteenth Amendment. A person who is “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States is a person who is “not subject to any foreign power”—that is, a person who was entirely native to the United States, not the citizen or subject of any foreign government. The same members of Congress who voted for the Thirteenth Amendment in 1865 then voted to define citizenship for freed slaves in a federal law in 1866, then voted again months later in 1866—using only slightly different language—to put that definition of citizenship in the Constitution, language that was ultimately ratified by the states in 1868 as the Fourteenth Amendment.

In 1884, the Supreme Court in Elk v. Wilkins noted that the language of the Civil Rights Act was condensed and rephrased in the Fourteenth Amendment and that courts can therefore look to the Civil Rights Act to understand better the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court reasoned that if a person is a foreign citizen, then their children are likewise not constitutionally under the jurisdiction of the United States, and therefore not entitled to citizenship. In fact, the Court specifically then added that this rule is why the children of foreign ambassadors are not American citizens.

That is why Congress can specify that the children of foreign diplomats and foreign soldiers are not Americans by birth. They’re not “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States. Congress’s INA does not grant them citizenship; federal law never has.

So why is a child born on American soil to foreign parents an American citizen by birth? Because the Fourteenth Amendment’s Citizenship Clause is a floor, not a ceiling. Under Article I, Section 8, Clause 4 of the Constitution, Congress has absolute power to make laws for immigration and for granting citizenship to foreigners. Congress’s current INA is far more generous than the Constitution requires. Congress could expand it to grant citizenship to every human being on earth, or narrow it to its constitutional minimum.

Media confusion on this issue is puzzling, because the greatest legal minds in this country have discussed the issue. (Just none of them were put on camera to explain it.) Scholars including Dr. John Eastman of Chapman University, and even Attorney General Edwin Meese—the godfather of constitutional conservatism in the law—reject the myth of birthright citizenship....

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...enship/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
 

DMorgan

Member
If Trump could win the Presidency, which he will not, this would be a fascinating arguement to watch work its way through the judicial process. Unfortunately the courts are so heavily politicized that getting a fair ruling is just about impossible.
Personally, i think the automatic citizenship by birth is rediculous.
 

church mouse guy

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If Trump could win the Presidency, which he will not, this would be a fascinating arguement to watch work its way through the judicial process. Unfortunately the courts are so heavily politicized that getting a fair ruling is just about impossible.
Personally, i think the automatic citizenship by birth is rediculous.

Trump is starting to look like a serious candidate since the other Republicans seem to be owned by the Democrat Party.
 

Reformed

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I am for strong immigration laws. I am for deporting illegal immigrants back to their country of origin and penalizing them from coming back to the United States. I am for securing the border and empowering our border agents so that they are well-staffed and able to do their job. But as a Christian I am not as black and white as some on the children of illegal immigrants. A child born in this country to illegal immigrants is not a one-sized-fits-all problem. An argument can be made that children while in infancy are more easily sent to their parent's country of origin since the child is not adapted to life in the United States. But what if the child is 10, 11, or 12 years old? What if the child is a teenager? Is it moral to deport a child who has only known this country? I know this seems to defend the "anchor baby" position, but not really. I could see infants and toddlers being deported along with their families, but children in their teens?
 

righteousdude2

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I am for strong immigration laws. I am for deporting illegal immigrants back to their country of origin and penalizing them from coming back to the United States. I am for securing the border and empowering our border agents so that they are well-staffed and able to do their job. But as a Christian I am not as black and white as some on the children of illegal immigrants. A child born in this country to illegal immigrants is not a one-sized-fits-all problem. An argument can be made that children while in infancy are more easily sent to their parent's country of origin since the child is not adapted to life in the United States. But what if the child is 10, 11, or 12 years old? What if the child is a teenager? Is it moral to deport a child who has only known this country? I know this seems to defend the "anchor baby" position, but not really. I could see infants and toddlers being deported along with their families, but children in their teens?

If their parents are here illegally, that should be more than enough to squash their claim to birth rights. Their parents are invading enemies and invaders have no rights.
 

just-want-peace

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IMHO, there will never be a law that is on the plus side for everybody; there are always some that it will hurt, so the goal is to minimize the downside as much as possible.
One of the biggest problems today (IMHO) is the liberal tendency to try to "save" the few by some asinine law that ends up hurting a vast majority but helps the few!
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Rev and his post is wrong. The Supreme Court has said they are legal. You will have to repel the 14th Amendment to make them illegal.

And what other groups do you want to include in not receiving citizenship Rev.?


The concept of jus soli has a storied history in the United States that dates to the late 1800s.

Here are three things that will bring you up to speed on the issue:

1. It's in the Constitution

The issue of citizenship was brought into focus by a Supreme Court ruling in 1857 that essentially declared that blacks — even the daughters and sons of freed slaves — were not U.S. citizens.

In 1868, the U.S. ratified the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The first sentence reads: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

"The Court held that the Fourteenth Amendment affirmed the traditional jus soli rule, including the exceptions of children born to foreign diplomats, to hostile occupying forces or on foreign public ships, and added a new exception of children of Indians owing direct allegiance to their tribes. It further held that the 'Fourteenth Amendment ... has conferred no authority upon Congress to restrict the effect of birth, declared by the Constitution to constitute a sufficient and complete right to citizenship' and that it is 'throughout affirmative and declaratory, intended to allay doubts and settle controversies which had arisen, and not to impose any new restrictions upon citizenship."

In other words, the 14th Amendment excludes children born to diplomats or hostile occupying forces and those born on foreign public ships.

Those are some very narrow restrictions that most legal scholars agree do not exclude the children of illegal immigrants from receiving automatic citizenship. To be clear, it means that current jurisprudence indicates the U.S.-born children of undocumented immigrants are given citizenship by the 14th Amendment.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...-you-should-know-about-birthright-citizenship.
 
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Crabtownboy

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Not necessarily - Congress could pass a law -then....

Would not work Salty, not a simple law change. It would take the repel of the 14th Amendment and that would be very difficult, if not impossible.




What groups did you have in mind Crab?

I have none in mind Salty. But if one group can be excluded then any other group, say SBC'ers, or Muslims, or Hindus, or people with freckles could be excluded from citizenship. Once the camel gets its nose in the tent ... well you know the rest of the saying.
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
The GOP isn't planning on winning any national elections any time soon.

Black voters won't go near the GOP because of that racist representing rebel flag that so many GOP'ers support.

Now the Hispanic bloc isn't gonna go anywhere near the GOP because of this buffoonery of repealing the 14th amendment and striking out at babies being born in the US to illegal parents.

Does the GOP ever do anything to help anybody other than itself and those who support it??
 

Crabtownboy

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United States v. Wong Kim Ark


Well Salty, the Supreme Court disagrees with you and the link you posted to as is clearly shown in their decision concerning Wong Kim Ark.


United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898), is a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court ruled that practically everyone born in the United States is a U.S. citizen. This decision established an important precedent in its interpretation of the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution.
Wong Kim Ark, who was born in San Francisco to Chinese parents around 1871, had been denied re-entry to the United States after a trip abroad, under a law restricting Chinese immigration and prohibiting immigrants from China from becoming naturalized U.S. citizens. He challenged the government's refusal to recognize his citizenship, and the Supreme Court ruled in his favor, holding that the citizenship language in the Fourteenth Amendment encompassed essentially everyone born in the U.S.—even the U.S.-born children of foreigners—and could not be limited in its effect by an act of Congress.
The case highlighted disagreements over the precise meaning of one phrase in the Citizenship Clause—namely, the provision that a person born in the United States who is subject to the jurisdiction thereof acquires automatic citizenship. The Supreme Court's majority concluded that this phrase referred to being required to obey U.S. law; on this basis, they interpreted the language of the Fourteenth Amendment in a way that granted U.S. citizenship to almost all children born on American soil (a concept known as jus soli).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark
 

Revmitchell

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Critics say that Trump’s plan is unrealistic, that it would require a constitutional amendment because the Fourteenth Amendment mandates birthright citizenship and that the Supreme Court has upheld this requirement ever since its passage in 1868. The critics are wrong. A correct understanding of the intent of the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment and legislation passed by Congress in the late 19th century and in 1923 extending citizenship to American Indians provide ample proof that Congress has constitutional power to define who is within the “jurisdiction of the United States” and therefore eligible for citizenship. Simple legislation passed by Congress and signed by the president would be constitutional under the Fourteenth Amendment.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/birthright-citizenship-not-mandated-by-constitution
 

Zaac

Well-Known Member
Just astonished that so many in the GOP are for this. Shameful.
 
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Crabtownboy

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Congress can give citizenship as long as it abides by the 14th Amendment. However Congress cannot take away citizenship without repelling the 14th Amendment.

Rev. and others response shows that while they will fight for the illegal alien child to be born they care nothing about its life once born and would see that child returned to a possible very hostile country that would not recognize the child as a citizen. You will loudly denounce abortion, but then turn around and push for laws that could well cost the child its life.

Snip

I oppose abortion and am in favor of helping the living.

 
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Zaac

Well-Known Member
Congress can give citizenship as long as it abides by the 14th Amendment. However Congress cannot take away citizenship without repelling the 14th Amendment.

Rev. and others response shows that while they will fight for the illegal alien child to be born they care nothing about its life once born and would see that child returned to a possible very hostile country that would not recognize the child as a citizen. You will loudly denounce abortion, but then turn around and push for laws that could well cost the child its life.



I oppose abortion and am in favor of helping the living.


Does seem to be a consistent GOP position. This is another Illustration for why Christians shouldn't be so closely affiliated with these political parties.
 
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Lewis

Active Member
Site Supporter
Just FYI, the following developed nations do not allow birthright citizenship:



Australia
Austria
Belgium
Bermuda
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Faroe Islands
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hong Kong
Iceland
Ireland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Malta
Monaco
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Portugal
San Marino
Singapore
Slovakia
Slovenia
South Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Taiwan
United Kingdom
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
And those countries have nothing to do with our Constitution!

Just FYI, the following developed nations do not allow birthright citizenship:



Australia
Austria
Belgium
Bermuda
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Faroe Islands
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hong Kong
Iceland
Ireland
Israel
Italy
Japan
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Malta
Monaco
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
Portugal
San Marino
Singapore
Slovakia
Slovenia
South Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Taiwan
United Kingdom
 

Lewis

Active Member
Site Supporter
And those countries have nothing to do with our Constitution!

The following have repealed birthright citizenship in recent years. I fail to see how they have behaved "shamefully" in doing so.

Australia (2007)
New Zealand (2005)
Ireland (2005)
France (1993)
India (1987)
Malta (1989)
UK (1983)
Portugal
 
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