Continuationism and Cessationism: An Interview with Dr. Wayne Grudem

The other interview with Sam Waldron is also good. Read both interviews.

 

from the Wayne Grudem interview, part 2

Is it possible to believe in a continuationist position without having experienced any of the gifts?

I encounter students and pastors all the time who say "I'm not persuaded by the cessationist arguments from Scripture but I've never seen any of these miraculous things in my life." That is the most common comment that I hear about these things from people who are in mainstream Evangelical positions. And over the years as I've taught not only here at Phoenix Seminary but at other seminaries - adjunct at other seminaries - by far the most common view expressed among seminary graduates is open but cautious. They say "I'm not convinced by the cessationist arguments but I really don't know how to put these things into practice in my own church and I've never seen them happen." Tim, the cessationist argument is not winning the day in terms of exegetical arguments or persuasiveness in the books published. I think it's appealing to a smaller and smaller group of people.

 

From the Waldron interview, part 1

 

Grudem's position hangs on making a substantive distinction between NT apostles and prophets. He says that NT apostles are the equivalent of OT prophets. NT prophets are something entirely different.

For Grudem, a NT prophet can be prompted by the Spirit to speak, but what he speaks won't necessarily be without error or authoritative.

It seems to me that Grudem's position is a cessationist position, with a few definitions changed. Obviously it isn't ... and I haven't studied it in depth. But he is changing a key definition right here.

 

Go here for the rest of the discussion by Waldron: Tongues! Signs! Wonders! An Interview with Dr. Sam Waldron (Part 2)

I'm not sure where PastorSBC1303 might want to go with this discussion, so I hope I don't send it off in the wrong direction. But especially the above question asked of Waldron brings up something of which I am curious.

It seems to me that a lot of Baptists historically have been cessationists in regard to tongues, miracles, etc., while holding positions of varying degrees concerning the leadership of the Spirit (which might near that of Piper & Grudem). I often hear "the Lord led me to..."

If one is truly cessationist: Is there really any leadership of the Holy Spirit apart from the word of God (the Bible)? Does God by His Spirit "speak" to us in "leadings", "signs", feelings, providence, etc.? Or are we solely left up to make decisions based on principles we find in His Word? I say principles because it is obvious that the Word doesn't speak specifically to certains details in our life.

For example, there are Bible principles that speak to the kind of wife I should seek and marry. But I couldn't look in the Bible and it tell me "You should make K----- H----- your wife."

The Bible makes many principles and practices clear for New Testament churches. But it doesn't tell a church, "You should call X----- Z----- to be your pastor." Or to the preacher it doesn't say, "You should accept the call of Xcellent Baptist Church as pastor."

Is there additional guidance from the Holy Spirit on these matters? If so, does this contradict cessationism? Why or why not? If not, how do we make such decisions? Is it just a practical matter: Well K. H. is a Baptist and we have lots of things in common and I think I'll marry her. Or, Xcellent Baptist Church offers a great opportunity for my ministry; they have a parsonage and pay a decent salary. I'd love for my children to grow up there. I think I'll accept their call.

I hope I've offered enough explanation to get my point across. I look forward to the responses.

PastorSBC1303, if I'm sidetracking the thread, let me know and I can start another thread for this.

 

I have definately been instructed by the spirit of God to do something from time to time - but not very often. Far more frequently its a matter of obviousness what to do and a matter of fairly free choice what to do . . .

 

rlvaughn,

That is Grudem's point. He calls that prophecy. I am not convinced that is what NT prophecy was. I think your description is substantively different than the sign gifts. But I agree in principle with the cessastionist position you describe. It is what Gary Friesen describes in his book "Decision Making and the Will of God."

 

I would respond to you as well, that I wonder if that is really a refutation of cessationism? Have cessationists ever denied a leading of the Spirit that is not directly through his word? I don't think so.

I do think many are pretty loose in "the Lord led me" kind of theology. They have no real distinction between that and continuation. But I am not sure that is necessary. I think the Lord can lead us without the continuation of the sign gifts, through his word working in our conscience and circumstances.

 

As far as I have ever heard, a cessationist simply argues that the sign gifts have ceased. I don't think cessationism claims that "the only guidance can come from God's word." There is a clear distinction between Scripture and other guidance, such as circumstances, wisdom living, etc.

Perhaps we (I) need to figure out what everyone else who claims cessationism is saying. With respect to direction, I am in agreement with Friesen, in the main. Have you read him? Is he a cessationist?

 

I may have confused the issue a little with the term "if one is truly cessationist". But that seems to be little of what Tim was getting at in his questioning. "...how God speaks to us, how God guides us through life, how does that differ between a strict cessationist versus someone who believes in the continuing gifts?" and "...they still will say that 'God told me' or 'God stirred by heart.' Is it incompatible with cessationism to feel that God is using subjective stirrings of the heart or some type of prompting?"

Waldron is quite careful in answering:

PastorSBC1303:

PastorSBC, that is the impression I got that Tim Challies was asking in his question. Waldron was careful in his answer, but ultimately, if I understand him correctly, he is leaving a little room for such guidance.

I would consider myself a cessationist, believing that revelation, miraculous gifts, tongues, etc., ceased with or near the close of the apostolic era and the completion of the inspired Word of God. Yet I personally don't feel that a direct leadership of believers by the Spirit contradicts my position. Because this leadership is subjective, in my belief system the leadership must be confirmed by the principles of the Word to determine whether it is of God, self, or other sources.

I agree that we have probably overreacted so as to not be remotely associated with any of this. I wonder if the fundamentalist fight against modernism didn't also inadvertantly bring in among Baptists a tendency to credit all the work of the Spirit to the Word only. Just a thought, I haven't researched that area for evidence.

Pastor Larry:

I haven't read Friesen. I read quite a few "How to know the Will of God" type books when I was a young beginning minister and very seldom found them helpful. I don't say that as a condemnation of Friesen (since I haven't read his book), but simply offer that as an explanation of why I haven't glanced toward any books of that nature since. Could you perhaps give us a quote to sample what he is saying? Thanks.

 

RL,

I agree with what you presented Waldron as saying, and that was what I picked up from reading the interview with him. I wonder how substnatively different that is from Grudem. I know it is, but I am not sure how much, since I haven't studied them in depth.

Friesen's book was widely condemned when I was growing up. Then I read it about 8 years ago or so, and it confirmed some conclusions I had been coming to. At points in the book, I found myself laughing out loud at how well he was describing my life and the paralysis that decisions brought (and still do sometimes).

His main point is that God has a moral will revealed in Scripture and any decision made within that moral will is acceptable to God. He says, "In nonmoral decisions, the objective of the Christian is to make wise decisions on the basis of spiritual expediency." He goes a little further than I would go, I think, but he rejects the idea that there is a "dot" in teh center of God's will that we have to find. He says there is a circle and we have freedom in that circle.

We have to be careful in praying "for God's leadership" in terms of what we are actually asking for.

But that's probably getting off topic of the issue here. I might pull that book out again and read it. It helped me a lot the first time. I might change my evaluation the second time.

 

Cessationism, I believe, is clearly supported by looking at the purposes of the sign gifts (particularly Heb 2:4). They existed to confirm the apostolic message. With the close of the NT, we know what the apostolic message was. The sign gifts serve no purpose.