Contraception

[Born Again Catholic]

There is an interesting discussion regarding Contraception going on in the "General Baptist " section of the forum. The pro-contraception crowd seems to take and imply certain positions which just shows how far the anti-life mentality has reached christian circles.

Pro- contraception Arguments and positions(as restated and summarized by me)

Argument 1-"Because contraception is possible it must be from God not from Satan"

FYI back in the day when all christians taught against contraception pre-1935, Planned Parenthood (then known as the Birth Control League was fighting for contraceptive rights, they tried and have succcesfully indoctrniated the public into thinking that children are burdens not blessings. Ofcourse their next natural move after convincing the public and some churches that contraception was moral because it stopped burdens (aka children)was to stop those burdens through other means abortion)

Argument 2-Yes scripture teaches fertility is a blessing and barrennnes a curse, so its only natural that I try to make myself barren through chemical or other means

Argument 3- Yes children are a blessing from God according to scripture but God gave me a brain to pro-actively block any blessings he may want to bestow on me (not from scripture- Also first known as "First my will be done then yours Lord")

Argument 4 -If I trusted in the Lord as you say the I couldn't go to the doctor to treat or prevent any disease, because I equate the possibility of children as an attack on my body from an unwanted disease.

This one really shows how successful Planned Parenthood has been indoctrinating the public that children are a curse not a blessing from God.


Please let me know your thoughts especially any that relate to scripture.

 

[Jim1999]

Contraception equals responsible parenthood. I could not raise more than two children responsibly. Because children are a blessing does not preclude that more children equals multiple blessings; it just doesn't work that way, sorry.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Born Again Catholic]

misposting

 

[Born Again Catholic]

Jim

The theology that children at some point are no longer blessings, is interesting theology its just not christian theology.

Scripture teaches us that children are always a blessing

If you have scriptures which teach differently please provide examples.

 

[Jim1999]

I don't have scripture. Not everything is covered by a specific chapter and verse. What I am saying is that more of a specific item which is a blessing, does not preclude additional blessings. In other words, have 20 children because you can, but your income is only minimum wage and your job responsibities are immense. An example is ministry. Time demands are such that I determined I could not do a responsible job of parenting at the same time.

Scripture is dealing with a different age. A form of birth control was used, but it was not talked about in scripture, except with Onan, when the seed was spilled.

Over the years, I saw abject poverty and multiple births followed by abuse, neglect and just plain inability to properly care for that family.

If one chooses to have a large family, God bless them. I chose not to follow that path. We all have that option.

Look at the third world countries and their problems due specifically to more population than they can care for. Now agencies are distributing condoms (both disease and births) and birth control devices, in an attempt to control the population and resulting problems.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[TaterTot]

Every time this issue comes up, I always bring up something that no one ever responds to. I will try it again here, lol.

Contraception does not only include products and methods. When a couple knows that they are fertile at a certain point and chooses to abstain for fear of getting pregnant, is that sin? If the husband is desiring and the woman not or vice versa (lol) is that sinful too?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

No, it is not a sin. It is not a sin to not have a kid every chance you get. It is not a sin to refrain from sex when the husband/wife doesn't feel like it. It is not a sin to prevent pregnancy.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Originally posted by TaterTot:
If the husband is desiring and the woman not or vice versa (lol) is that sinful too?

A man is to submit to the woman's needs. If she needs to be left alone, he must submit.

 

[Born Again Catholic]

Tatertot

Practicing self control is a virtue.

To use contraception to purposefully frustrate the natural purpose of marital relations is sinful. God by his grace allows us to participate in the miracle of creation, a being in God's own image. By closing yourself off to the possibility of life during marital relations you turn your spouse into an object whose purpose is to satiate a carnal desire.

To say it is an act love is a farce, you effectively are saying that yes I love all of you xcept your God given fertility which i do not want to share with you infact I wish it to be destroyed.

Prior to the 1930's all christian viewed contraception as sinful and most looked at it as no different than sodomy, it is this secular cultural which has warped the views of christians without christians even realizing how much they have embraced this anti-life outlook.

 

[TaterTot]

Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:

By closing yourself off to the possibility of life during marital relations you turn your spouse into an object whose purpose is to satiate a carnal desire.

So what about when you arent fertile? Isnt that satiating a carnal desire as well? This logic makes no sense.

To say it is an act love is a farce, you effectively are saying that yes I love all of you xcept your God given fertility which i do not want to share with you infact I wish it to be destroyed.

I dont want it destroyed. Childbirth is a beautiful experience. But just because a couple doesnt want to get pregnant this month and chooses to abstain a certain few days does not mean what you have stated above. I think its selfish of someone to insist upon the risk of pregnancy when both partners arent ready for that.

[ December 24, 2005, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: TaterTot ]

 

[gb93433]

If congregations paid their pastors more then perhaps they could raise 15 or 20 children instead of just a few. It takes a big paycheck to raise many kids. I had some friends who wre raised in a hime of ten kids. They had a maid and he was a doctor. They went on vacation in a family bus.

 

[Born Again Catholic]

So what about when you arent fertile? Isnt that satiating a carnal desire as well? This logic makes no sense

With God all things are possible as long as you are open to lthe miracle of creation, then you are participating in the natural order of things as God designed them. There is huge difference between being infertile and purposely destroying your God given fertility. i will give an example in a moment.

But just because a couple doesnt want to get pregnant this month and chooses to abstain a certain few days does not mean what you have stated above.

I assume you mean something like NFP (naturally family planning.) I have no issue related to people abstaining the couple to couple league for instance helps couple understand how to make this part of their life, and scripture endorses the virtue of self control, which abstaining would be an example of. scripture however does not promote treating your spouse solely as object to satisfy a carnal desire.

Let me give you an example

Lets say you have two people who are watching their weight, David and Harry.

David really enjoys eating food but he understandst that the natural purpose of eating is for sustanance as well as our enjoyment, he eats in moderation but he makes sure he enjoys himself when he eats and he is open to the natural consequences of his actions

Harry on the other hand is a glutton, he does not want to gain weight and he doesn't want to face the natural consequences of his actions. He stuffs himself with all the french pastries, steak, shrimp, and milshakes he can eat at every meal. Then when he is done he heads over to the nearest receptacle and vomits out his meal.

According to the logic of people who contracept David and Harry's acts are identical as they both are just watching their weight but in different ways. However if you read the Bible you understand David simply practices self control and Harry is a glutton.

As you could guess Harry also contracepts, he doesn't want children he is afraid of the vacattion or car he would have to give up or the less expensive neighborhod he would have to move to and vomits out his seed in a rubber resepticle and wastes his seed.

David on the other hand practices natural family planning and sometimes abstains from relations but even in times when he is not abstaining he is open to God's will, as it is God who opens and closes the womb.

 

[Jim1999]

The mind, a gift from God, is a terrible thing to waste. One must be prepared to face the consequences when acting irresponsibly knowing a given state.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[TaterTot]

NFP is a form of contraception, is it not? It is making sure one does not get pregnant when one doesnt want to. No different than some other methods.

I understand all that about the "seed spilling" from the OT law. But do we wear clothing made of two kinds of materials? That was forbidden too. Why pick and choose which OT laws carry over and which ones dont?

 

[Bunyon]

"Over the years, I saw abject poverty and multiple births followed by abuse, neglect and just plain inability to properly care for that family."------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So killing babies is a acceptible means to help fix the problem. We actually see the reverse porblem not. We don't have enough folks to care for the old. It seems in aborting our young we are fast creating a new poverty class, the old.

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Babies, no. But allowing eggs to not implant - so that they never develop to the point of being actual human beings . . . that's innocent. In fact, God arranges for that to happen thousands and thousands of times without our knowledge!

And the population of the world simply annot grow indefinately. Something is going to stop it someday. Here are the choices:

a) Voluntary birth control

b) Disease

c) War

d) Famine

So those who vote against a) are voting, instead, for b, c, or d. That is not really a highly moral choice.

 

[Jim1999]

Bunyon, the subject of abortion of a fetus was not even mentioned or hinted at. Sorry, you got the wrong forum.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Born Again Catholic]

NFP is a form of contraception, is it not?

It is not. Tater Tot please read or reread the example I gave regarding applying the same logic to eating, something we all more easily relate to. Tell me if you equate the two methods of managing your weight.

One cooperates with the natural order established by God the other defies it.

The moral law from the OT (i.e homosexuality) is not to be ignored on the contrary by the grace of the Holy Spirit we are even called to a higher standard.

Homosexuality and contraception are similar sins.

Have you ever thought of why homosexuality is so offensive to God.

Think about it, Got to run talk on this more later.

Merry Christ-Mass

 

[Bunyon]

"Bunyon, the subject of abortion of a fetus was not even mentioned or hinted at. Sorry, you got the wrong forum.

Cheers,

Jim "---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"contraception", is the subject of this thread. This term includes abortifacient birth control pills. Perhaps you would like to amend your statement to not include BCP's???????? If not, than my statement is applicable. But you can't possibly rule out abortifacient BCP's since you are pro-choice.

 

[Eliyahu]

Bunyon was right in pointing out BCP's.
But there are degrees in the sinfulness.
The simple contraception excluding BCP's is far less sinful than Abortion which is heinous crime to God as Molech worshippers were.
The similarity between 2 were that they sacrificed the lives of the babies in exchange for their worldly happiness.