Cooperation with Catholics

In another thread, I commented that I support an organization like YFC that works in cooperation with Catholics and Pastor Larry responded with this. I know many on these boards will disagree with my position on this issue, but I'll try to explain it in way that you may (or may not) understand.

First of all, I know many have made the claim that Catholics do not preach the gospel of Christ. That could mean a lot of things and I think it is important to define what we mean by the gospel of Christ because I believe that Catholics do preach the gospel of Christ.

Obviously there are differences in teaching between Catholic and the typical Baptist understanding and both sides launch accusations of "heresy" at each other over those differences. Those differences are valid concerns that seem incompatible, need to be discussed and corrections need to be made in both the Catholic perspective and the Protestant one.

I believe that working together on the things we have in common, like having folks turn from sin to understand the saving grace of Christ, will help us positively influence each other towards greater biblical orthodoxy.

I know many of you disagree with me because of the Doctrine of Separation and I hope we can civilly discuss those disagreements in a Christ-like manner that will bring glory to Christ.

 

Salvation by grace through faith is also a Catholic teaching.

 

This is true and it is wrong. They miss the word "alone." Salvation in Scripture is grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Catholics have, for 1500 years, compromised that gospel. They do not preach the gospel of Christ as a church. They teach that salvation is merited by works, by infused grace. They have in fact condemned the biblical gospel in Trent.

People seem to forget the Reformation. IN those days, everyone recognized this divide. And the truth is that we haven't changed and they haven't changed. Why do people think that since neither side has changed, we suddenly agree? We don't. We do not preach the same gospel. </font>[/QUOTE]That pesky little word, alone.

If by faith alone, you mean that works do not merit justification, then Catholics would agree with you (my above quotations). This is the usage that Luther used.

If by faith alone, you mean that works do not accompany faith as a result of "living faith", then Catholics would disagree with you in obedience to James 2:24.

I think both Catholics and Protestants should be in agreement that this second understanding of faith alone is not biblical.

 

While Baptism is the tricky one because Catholics consider it a sacramental work that coincides with justification (I'll leave this one for later), the other sacraments are part of the process of grace extended through sanctification which protestants should agree involves works.

Purgatory is also another issue difficult to reconcile but I don't think it is a deal breaker.

 

People seem to forget the Reformation. IN those days, everyone recognized this divide. And the truth is that we haven't changed and they haven't changed. Why do people think that since neither side has changed, we suddenly agree? We don't. We do not preach the same gospel. </font>[/QUOTE]I think both sides have changed a lot. 500 years can do that.

Neither side has said, we were completely wrong and you were completely right, but both sides are starting to see some wrongs of their own positions and some rights of the other position
as both move towards greater biblical orthodoxy.

 

The Catholic connection between Baptism and forgiveness of sins is one that is difficult to reconcile with the Baptist position. However, Catholics do believe that Christ's sacrifice paid the full price of their sins.

Regarding purgatory, you misunderstand how it functions in the Catholic faith. It doesn't "save" or justify anyone.

I don't believe in Purgatory but I just want to clarify its position in the Catholic faith.

 

A little more clarification on Purgatory that should help protestants understand its function in Catholicism. For them, purgatory is where God's purifying discipline can happen, not redemption for any sins.

I haven't forgotten about your Baptism point and it is an important one.

 

I have a confession to make before I continue on this topic. The Baptist position on symbolic Baptism is one that I have been struggling with, and symbolic Communion too. I have not felt the need to denounce those positions yet and I do not subscribe to the Catholic understanding of these things. But my honest attempts at studying the Biblical passages regarding those two ordinances and prayerful meditation on them have lead me to question how biblical these positions really are.

I understand the rationale behind why these positions were taken by Baptists and the abuses they were trying to avoid. However, I also get the feeling that we threw the baby out with the bathwater on this one. I'll just address Baptism and leave Communion for later.

The biblical association of baptism with the forgiveness of sins is undeniable.

NASB - Mark 16:16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

NASB - Acts 2:28 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

NASB - Acts 22:16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.

There are other passages that suggest something more than mere symbolism happening in baptism.

NASB - Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

NASB - Galatians 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

NASB - 1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

At the same time it is faith in Christ and not any work or action of our own that justifies, something Catholics believe as well. So what actually goes on in Baptism? Let me know when you figure it out. I'm ok with not having all the answers at this point in time and for now, I simply want to have a biblical understanding of Baptism that includes an honest look at above passages and not one that defends this doctrine or that doctrine.

Regarding the Catholic perspective, I found this article to add some insight even though I disagree with many of his points.