Cornelius the Centurion

Yes, he was a pious man (Greek eusebhs). But is being pious the same as having faith in Christ as Lord and Savior? I don't think so.

Cornelius did not seek God. God sought Cornelius and sent Peter, whom God had already prepared, to preach Christ unto him. All the bible says about him was that he was pious, that he feared God, that he was a good giver, and that he prayed. The same can be said of just about every Muslim I know, but they aren't saved nor are they seeking the True God of all creation. They, like Cornelius, are perfectly content with the god they have. </font>[/QUOTE]This is what I would call a distortion of the facts, and a typical Calvinistic answer!

The Bible clearly says that Cornelius "feared God with all his house...and prayed to God always" (10:2). How you can say that he was not seeking the True God is beyond me! This is completely a twisting of what it clearly says in Scripture, because it does not support the Calvinistic nonsense of inability, etc.

If you guys would simply open your eyes to the plain teachings of Scripture, and not trying to spin everything as Calvinistic, the you just may learn something

Listen to what Scripture goes on to say about God's dealings:

"Then Peter opened his mouth and said, of a truth I perceive, that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted by Him" (verses 34-35)

Now, the Calvinist who cannot accept the facts of Scripture, will twist this to say, that the "he that feareth Him", is the elect, which is of course a distortion of the plain teaching of the Bible. But, do we expect the Calvinist's to be honest in what they believe?

 

Romans 3:11 is Paul quoting Psalm 14:1-3. David is speaking of the Nation of Israel, and to the GODLESS who are devouring the people of God. It is the Godless, not the unbeliever, who do not seek God. The Godless of our day includes the ACLU that is doing all it can to stymie Christian Faith in America.

 

Hey, I'm not a Calvinist by any means, but had some thoughts on this one.

Wouldn't "fearing God with all your house" and "prayed to God always" describe the Pharisees (who certainly weren't on the right path and might have thought they were seeking God, but were missing his new revelation of the messiah).

Or better yet, let's not be so harsh as the Pharisees, but just say some run of the mill devout jew of the day. I'm sure there were many who feared God and prayed sincerely. Well, fearing God, but rejecting His son...(or never hearing of His son) wasn't going to help these sincere folks. They could go on making all their animal sacrifices, and praying, and miss the boat without Jesus.

Again, I'm no Calvinist, but it looks pretty clear that God chose to give Cornelius a special vision, that God specifically told Cornelius to send for Peter, and that God told Peter to come to Cornelius.

Hmmm.. God, God, God...looks to me like God was the prime mover in everything

Sure Cornelius prayed and fasted and such, but God chose to hear his prayer and remember his alms at this particular time, and reveal Jesus to him via Peter. How many other jews earnestly seeking God missed hearing about Jesus, or even rejected Jesus and chose to "earnestly" seek after God the same way they always had? Many, I'm sure despite the apostles' best efforts.

While I don't think the Cornelius passage proves anything about free will, I do think it's a wonderful account to prove that salvation and baptism of the Holy Spirit can happen without physical water baptism (love to talk to folks I know who are Church of Christ about this one and the thief on the cross).

 

Hi Laymenstermsplease,

Would you also apply that principle of your understanding to Abraham, Noah, Joseph, Joshua, Moses, Caleb, Ruth, Samual, Daniel, David, etc.?

 

So you don't believe Romans 3:11 is "cogent?" </font>[/QUOTE]Hi, you claim not to be a Calvinist, but certainly argue your position as though you are one!

You, like the Calvinists, quote Romans 3:11 as though the whole purposes of God are summed uo in this one verse.

I am of the opinion that this verse has been misunderstood, and therefore misused to support something that the Bible does not teach. I will not argue with the verse, as it is the Word of God in truth. However, its application can be seen another way.

"there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God"

Left to ourselves, there is not a single person who will ever turn to the Lord, this is an undisputed fact. The heart of man is in rebellion from the Lord, and naturally are against all that God stands for. There is no one who could wake up one morning and say, "I am now going to make a decision to follow Jesus as my Saviour and Lord". This is not possible. Jesus Himself teaches that, "No man can come to me, except the Father Who has sent Me, draw him..." (John 6:44). There is nothing within ourselves that can do this "drawing" to the Lord Jesus, we ALL need the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives BEFORE we can make any decision to follow Christ. Jesus also says in John's Gospel, that one of the works of the Holy Spirit, is to "reprove (convict) the world of sin...of sin because they believe not on me" (16:8,9). One of the ways that the Holy Spirit does this, is by the preaching of the Gospel, as Paul says: "I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God leading to Salvation, to everyone that believes..."(Romans 1:16)

The Bible also says that we should "see the Lord while He may be found" (Isaiah 55:6) I also see from Acts 28, that Paul says, "well spoke the Holy Spirit by Isaiah the prophet to our fathers: saying, go unto this people, and say, hearing ye shall hear, and not understand, and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive. Because the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them" (25-27). It is interesting of the change that Paul has made here. In Isaiah we read: "make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes..." (6:10). Paul says: "and their eyes THEY HAVE CLOSED" God did NOT close their eyes for them so that they could not believe the Gospel of Jesus, as the Calvinist would have us believe, for here it clearly says that "we close our own eyes" to the thrth.

 

Good question. I reread the story- and it's a good one. I think the most important thing to recognize is that Calvinists (by and large) do not claim that a person cannot want to be saved, or that a person cannot excercize faith- we simply state that such faith and desire comes from God initially. The passage assuredly says God had heard Cornelius's prayers and saw his alms, but this has nothing to do with Cornelius acheiving faith on his own. God had to put Cornelius into a family or situation where he would have heard about the Lord- and had to have drawn Cornelius and put a seeking desire in his heart. This passage is no problem at all to Calvinism.

I think the problem that arises for anti-Calvinists who bite at the bit is that they equate the gradual giving of light to an elect unbeliever with actual salvation. Of course Cornelius wasn't a believer before Peter went to see him- and Calvinism doesn't say he was a believer. He was simply on the road of being eneabled and drawn by the Holy Spirit. When God changed Cornelius's wants- Cornelius changed his will and sent for Peter. Sometimes (like the book of Ruth) the entire workings of God's hand aren't EXplicitly stated, but IMplicitly stated.

God bless.

 

I'm a Calvinist by the way