costly believism

There has been a debate throughout Christianity about the relation of works to salvation.

1.Some say you must do good works(live holy and righteous lives, follow God's law) in order to merit your salvation.

2.Some say you must do good works(live holy and righteous lives, follow God's law) in order to maintain your salvation.

3.Some say you must do good works(live holy and righteous lives, follow God's law) in order to prove your salvation.

4.Some say you must do good works(live holy and righteous lives, follow God's law) because God commands you to, and out of love for Christ that constrains you to.

None of these positions say works are optional. Some though, the first three, say works are required either to merit,maintain or prove salvation.

The 4th position would assert that Assurance of salvation is completely based on the same thing salvation is based on, -our faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone to save us from our sins.

The other three positions see our assurance of salvation as based on our faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone to save us from our sins AND our works(that merit,maintain or prove our salvation.)

So what is the cost we must preach to our church audience, what must they bring Christ in exchange for their eternal salvation?

Those who believe in a costly salvation, will not usually come out and say what they really mean for fear of sounding like Catholics.

But really, if I stand in pulpit, and tell people that Christ will save them from their sins, what cost must they count before coming to him for the free gift of salvation?

We would agree that there is a cost of something in the New Testament that we are to count, but is it a cost of something we must bring in exchange for our eternal salvation?

Could it be the cost of being like Christ, of following his example? Or is it the cost our of eternal salvation?

We all would agree that Christ commanded us to be like him and follow his example. But did he command this effort to be like him as an exchange for our eternal salvation?

What works does Christ demand in order for us to get the salvation he offers? And if a man must work for something, is it really a gift according to Romans 4:4-7?

IFBReformer
IFBReformer

 

I wanted to add one thing before anybody responds. I know many will come back and say that the works we do are not in our own strength, but in the power of the Lord.

Regardless of the source of the strength to do the works though, they are still required - the difference is that some Christians believe they are required to merit, maintain or prove one's salvation - others believe they required out of love and obedience to our savior Jesus Christ but have nothing to do with our assurance of salvation in Christ and Christ alone.


Even Catholics write about the special grace God grants us to do the good works God requires in relation to our salvation.


IFBReformer

 

Scott,

I do not disagree that true belief results in change. I have counseled with people who tell me they made a proffession of faith and saw no change whatsoever, and I would not lead that person to believe they are saved.

Having said that, some people have more change than others and some people struggle with habitual sins. I will not counsel someone that because they have not been able to give a certain sin to the Lord that they are not saved. Has there been change in there life, has there been conviction of sins? These evidences of the new nature.

But just because we have the new nature, and we do have victory of some sin in our lives, does not mean will have victory over all sins in our life - for who here can honestly say they have victory over all sin in their life - if they do I would call them a liar as John did.

My issue here is resting my assurance of salvation on my works - if I can't lick this certain sin I must not be saved. I can't tell you how many people I have counseled with who actually have gotten resaved so many times because they were not able to get victory over certain sins.

My assurance does not rest on Christs sacrifice, plus my victory over certain sins, it rest on Christ alone.

Does this mean we stop battling or tell someone there ok with there sin? Of course not! We admonish them that God cannot fully bless them and he may even have to bring discipline on them to break them from that sin.

But often times I have heard Lordship advocates from the pulpit motivating people to holiness through fear, fear of proving they are not saved because they do certain things or do do certain things.

IFBReformer

 

Lacy,

This is an excellant point! Most of the New Testament is exhortations to Christians(not unbelievers) to leave their sins and follow Christ. The epistles are filled with rebukes for Christians, not unbelievers, about such things as sexual immorality,greed,laziness and host of other things.

If Christians just automatically did these things, there would be no need for such exhortation.

Another passage that is often ignored in this talk is I Cor 3 where we see a believer being saved so as by fire, with no rewards.

If all true believers will all live great lives for Christ, how is possible some will get no rewards but be saved anyway?

This is not an excuse to live wrong, and God will discipline his own. But the fact is that it is clear that Bible shows and commands what we ought to be as Christians, but it also shows by its rebuke of Christians that many were not and are not today what they ought to be - regardless though they are saved by the blood of Christ alone and there assurance does not rest on there works plus Christ.

IFBReformer

 

Jim,

I have heard variations of this my whole life, and believe me, I seek to please the Lord with my life and be a faithful disciple and I admonish those under my teaching to do so as well.

This kinda of reminds me of the small print when you get something free. Maybe they have a special offer that you can get this free service for 30 days(but in the small print it tells you after the 30 days there is such and such a cost).

I don't see such a concept of Salvation in the scriptures.

We are saved freely by his grace, and we don't all build on that free foundation of salvation that Christ gives us the same way or the same amount.

A costly discipleship SHOULD be the result of salvation for all believers, but the reality as we can see from the many rebukes and exhortations in the scriptures to Christians(not unbelievers) is that it is not.

IFBReformer

 

James seems to suggest that without changed behaviour, there was no changed nature.

</font>[/QUOTE]There are a couple of different view of what James is saying here, and believe me the Catholics love the epistle of James so we as Bible believers really need to study it to answer them.

I hold to two possible views of James and I will ask God which is the right one when I get to heaven.

In the King James it says "What doth it profit"
where see "What use is it" or other translations read "What good is it" in James here.

One valid view of the passage is that James is presenting what is seen as an unprofitable faith one that does not show itself in deeds to help others. He is not saying they people are not eternally saved if they do not help someone, but he is showing there faith is not profiting others, whether they be believers or unbelievers around them.

Another valid view, is the "it has no works" view. In this view, James could be talking of eternal salvation here hinging on works, but he is speaking of those who show absolutely no evidence of their salvation, literally have no works. What about those who do some works? Who have some evidences?

Also we must interpret James in light of the entire New Testament witness to Justification by faith alone.

IFBReformer

 

Scott,

What do you mean by "someone who only "reforms" to a certain point"? Could you give some real examples of this?

IFBReformer

 

Actually Scott, I should have worded 4 a little differently as you really can't choose 3 and 4.

Here is a better wording so you can see my point:

4.Some say you must do good works(live holy and righteous lives, follow God's law) because God commands you to, and out of love for Christ that constrains you to, you DO NOT do works to merit, maintain or prove your salvation.

A changed nature as we agree does lead to changed behavior, the arguments here are how much change and should we teach those under us to look to their Christ AND there works for assurance of salvation.


IFBReformer