Could the "National I.D." be (or become later) the Mark of the Beast?

[tamborine lady]

:type:

There are people now that say they are Christians, but they don't go to church every time it's open. (Sat or Sun) Because they are too busy making money so they can squander it on "things" instead of furthering the gospel! They don't read their bible because they don't have time.

So they already are breaking the 1st commandment, because they they have made little "gods" out of all their "stuff" !:tonofbricks:

But do they see it?

NO, because they think they are saved and going to heaven no matter what.

I even had a person tell me once that even if they took the mark (whatever it is) that she would still go to heaven!

Waiting and watching,

Tam

 

[Claudia_T]

Even secular people like well-known cartoonists realize whats in the works

 

[tamborine lady]

Claudia,

I will tell you the same thing I told Bob Ryan. If there is a National Sunday law passed someday, I will aplogize to both of you.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe in the Sabbath day, I just can't buy it as being the mark of the beast. But if it comes to that law being passed, then I will know you guys are right.

Waiting and watching,

Tam

 

[BobRyan]

Blue laws have been paseed in the U.S but most are no longer enforced.

In Virginia -- Thomas Jefferson and James Madison co-sponsored a bill entitled "The punishment of Sabbath Breakers" - which defined civil penalties for those who transgressed the Sunday requirements for solitude and rest.

But all these past examples are a faint incling of what SDAs predict for future "blue laws". And as you point out -- seeing is believing. If they don't happen then the SDA prediction is wrong... and if they do happen...

Well that will be very interesting.

But what IS facinating is that the SDA church has been saying that they come about in response to concerns for national security, patriotism, and as a reaction to violent conditions in natural forces seen as judgments against the nation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

As much as you speak of the influence of evolutionism; with the Bible chucked in favor of "empirical testing" (which can't be done for Creation; nobody can reproduce God creating the universe, but this is what they demand for the Bible to be accepted as "scientifically correct") I don't see how the Church is ever going to gain enough control over the people to enforce Sunday on them.
Society is falling away from Christianity, remember. Even the Catholics, who are supposed ot be the group responsible for this, have basically watered down the faith (teaching evolution, accepting all religions, etc).
I believe the Church may rise to some sort of significance in the endtime scenario, but it will just be a political figure, and a sentimental "religious" affiliation, and I do not see how they would be able to convince a skeptical and hedonistic world to keep a religious "sabbath" on either Sunday or saturday.

 

[BobRyan]

Well I did not "resist" the Social Security Card. I did not resist my driver's license or a draft card etc. So there are a lot of forms of ID that I did not resist already.

Your point is that by not resisting these forms of ID - we make it easier to one day control "what we can buy or sell" and I agree that this is true.

Yet we can hardly claim that God's Word tells us "not to identify ourselves".

The same policeman that helps the stranded motorist could one day be used to take a child away from Godly Christian parents who teach their child that same-sex marriage is wrong. The problem is not the Policeman -- it is the making of laws that violate God's Word.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Marcia]

Can we argue "If the Ten commandments were completely revealed we would all agree on them and the fact that they are God's commandments for mankind".

Does the RCC agree on the use of image worship vs the 2nd commandment?

If not is it because it has not been revealed?

What about the Jews and Christ as Messiah - is it really a problem of the scriptures not revealing the fact that Christ was the Messiah?

In Christ,

Bob

Bob, the things you bring up have already been revealed.

It is just plain fact that the Bible does not tell us exactly what the mark of the Beast is, and it is in the future. How can we possibly know exactly what it is?

 

[Marcia]

:type:

There are people now that say they are Christians, but they don't go to church every time it's open. (Sat or Sun) Because they are too busy making money so they can squander it on "things" instead of furthering the gospel! They don't read their bible because they don't have time.

So they already are breaking the 1st commandment, because they they have made little "gods" out of all their "stuff" !:tonofbricks:

But do they see it?

NO, because they think they are saved and going to heaven no matter what.

I even had a person tell me once that even if they took the mark (whatever it is) that she would still go to heaven!

Waiting and watching,

Tam

Do you not believe in being assured of salvation or OSAS? If you think one cannot be assured and one can lose his/her salvation, I totally disagree. I hope you aren't implying I'm not saved. I know I am and therefore, I know I'm going to be with Christ after death.

You better start another thread on OSAS as that is not the topic here. However, I won't be there - no time to argue that topic.

 

[mnw]

As much as you speak of the influence of evolutionism; with the Bible chucked in favor of "empirical testing" (which can't be done for Creation; nobody can reproduce God creating the universe, but this is what they demand for the Bible to be accepted as "scientifically correct") I don't see how the Church is ever going to gain enough control over the people to enforce Sunday on them.
Society is falling away from Christianity, remember. Even the Catholics, who are supposed ot be the group responsible for this, have basically watered down the faith (teaching evolution, accepting all religions, etc).
I believe the Church may rise to some sort of significance in the endtime scenario, but it will just be a political figure, and a sentimental "religious" affiliation, and I do not see how they would be able to convince a skeptical and hedonistic world to keep a religious "sabbath" on either Sunday or saturday.

The end times one world religion will not be "Christianity", I don't believe. Perhaps it will be dominent because of its stronghold in the West, but I think the end times one world religion will be a comprimised form of all, if not mainly the major religions.

All religions have some point of truth where it agrees with all others. Normally it is in the false teaching that we could be gods or like god (not in the sense of righteousness but in ways we would see as blasphemous).

SO, if "Christianity" does fall into the end times one world religion it will be in a very warped form and unlike even the comprimised church we have today.

 

[Allan]

Bob, the things you bring up have already been revealed.

It is just plain fact that the Bible does not tell us exactly what the mark of the Beast is, and it is in the future. How can we possibly know exactly what it is?

Because the SDA doctrine states the Mark of the Beast and worshippers thereof are those that worship on Sunday.

And those marked by God will be because they worship on Saturday showing they are the true believers.

 

[Allan]

I believe the Church may rise to some sort of significance in the endtime scenario, but it will just be a political figure, and a sentimental "religious" affiliation, and I do not see how they would be able to convince a skeptical and hedonistic world to keep a religious "sabbath" on either Sunday or saturday.

It will have NOTHING to do with the day you worship on, but WHO it is you will worship. Those who take the mark of the beast do so to show their reverence and homage to him, their new god. They willingly will reject God for this new god and seek their new gods guidence and protection from the One True and Living God who judgment is raining down upon them.

 

[Claudia_T]

It will have NOTHING to do with the day you worship on, but WHO it is you will worship. Those who take the mark of the beast do so to show their reverence and homage to him, their new god. They willingly will reject God for this new god and seek their new gods guidence and protection from the One True and Living God who judgment is raining down upon them.

well what you dont understand Allan is that the Sabbath Day itself, the 7th day as God has told us it is, IS the sign that God gave that shows WHO you worship, namely the CREATOR of Heaven and Earth. God created everything in 6 days and on the 7th day He rested. That was what separated God's people from the Heathen.

Ezek:20:12: Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
Ezek:20:20: And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

Not only that but Revelation 14 6-12 says that God's people are they that "Keep the commandments OF GOD"... not the commandments OF MEN.

It is the Catholic Church who just changes things at will. Following human tradition instead of the Word of God. We arent given the authority to just go and decide when the Sabbath is.

It is people like the Pope who think they speak for God.

We are Protestants who protest that sort of thing.

The big question is, Do you obey God or man? The Creator or the creature?

Just as it seems pretty silly to some that when God told Adam and Eve not to eat from a certain tree.... He actually meant just what he said. And them deciding not to follow a simple command of God is what started this entire sin problem to begin with.


"The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret, even divine laws....The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and loosing the sheep."-From the Prompta Bibliotheca published in 1900 in Rome by the press of the propaganda.

"The pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ."-Decretal de Translat, Episcop. Cap. The pope's will stands for reason. He can dispense above the law, and of wrong make right by correcting and changing laws."-Pope Nicholas, Dis. 96.

"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to any one who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.' The Catholic Church says, 'No; by my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' and lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church. 'Priest Enright, C.S.S.R., Kansas City, Missouri.

"In reply to a letter of October 28, 1895, to Cardinal Gibbons, asking if the church claimed the change of the Sabbath as her mark, the following was received: 'Of course the Catholic church claims that the change was her act .... And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.'-C.F. Thomas, Chancellor."


This is what it is going to be all about.

Mt:15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

It is the main thing that separates Roman Catholicism from Protestantism. In the old days, Protestants knew that Babylon and the Beast stood for Rome.

Martin Luther knew what had happened:

"They allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appear, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." Martin Luther, Augsburg Confession of Faith, art. 28.


God is giving a warning. Verse 7 is quoting right out of the Sabbath Commandment, calling mankind to WORSHIP THE CREATOR:

Revelation 14
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


"It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:17.

"And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God." Ezekiel 20:20.

Claudia

 

[tamborine lady]

:type:

Marcia said: Do you not believe in being assured of salvation or OSAS? If you think one cannot be assured and one can lose his/her salvation, I totally disagree. I hope you aren't implying I'm not saved. I know I am and therefore, I know I'm going to be with Christ after death.

You better start another thread on OSAS as that is not the topic here. However, I won't be there - no time to argue that topic.

_______________________________________________

Tam says:

Sweetie, those are my words exactly. I didn't want to turn it into a SDA thing, but I see we have,but since you brought up,OSAS, I'll just post this scripture and leave it at that.

Romans-11-19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

So, no, I do not believe in OSAS, because that's another myth that the bible does not teach.

But since this is a baptist board, I will not pursue that.


However, the reason for starting this thread in the beginning was to discuss the RFID chip. Which of course we are not doing.

So I will leave it with you, so that everyone can argue with the SDA and miss the point entirely.

Waiting and watching,

Tam

 

[Allan]

I agree - the sabbath is for the Jews. OT is was for the Jews who were under the Law and Revelation - concerns God dealing once again with the Jewish Nation.

I am not going into prophesy at this point because you will not believe even if I displayed it.

Worship doesn't have to be on Sunday (my church has Tuesday night service and none on Sunday - at the moment) It is not about the day for they are created by God, we in under the New covenent are to worship in every day and to no particular respect to holy days (I think the sabbath would be considered there)

That is neither here nor there though:

AM I CORRECT -
the SDA doctrine states the Mark of the Beast and worshippers thereof are those that worship on Sunday.

And those marked by God will be because they worship on Saturday showing they are the true believers.


And boiled down is this -
Those who worship on Sunday worship Satan
Those who worship on Saturday worship God.

 

[BobRyan]

In Rev 14 the Sabbath Commandment of Christ is quoted and the contrast to that is made between those that "keep the commandments of God" and those that "worship the beast".

In Rev 14 the Sabbath language is explicitly tied to the subject of true worship and so it is clear that whatever you may choose to do with those details they do show a contrast between true and false worship and the text itself quotes from the Sabbath commandment.

Nothing SDAs can do there to change the text or ignore those details.

As far as Sabbath applying to Jews - I think we can all agree that Jews are humans and Christ said in Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was MADE For MANKIND".

Also in Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".

Also in Gen 2:3-4 it is clear that mankind is given the Sabbath just as Christ stated in Mark 2:27 -- mankind "for whom the Sabbath was made".

The issue is not "I like going to church on Tuesdays". I do too and often there are opportunities for church services on a number of days during the week. But that has nothing to do with keeping Christ the Creator's Sabbath.

We are perfectly free to attend church on all days of the week if the opportunity presents itself.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

AM I CORRECT -
the SDA doctrine states the Mark of the Beast and worshippers thereof are those that worship on Sunday.

And those marked by God will be because they worship on Saturday showing they are the true believers.


And boiled down is this -
Those who worship on Sunday worship Satan
Those who worship on Saturday worship God.

well actually SDAs do not believe that ANYBODY has the Mark of the Beast as of yet. In the near future when everybody is under conviction by the Holy Spirit and knowingly makes their decision to worship the Beast and obey man rather than God THEN is the time people will receive the Mark of the Beast.

and what it actually boils down to is this:

Those who obey man and keep THEIR traditions= Satan's people
Those who obey God and keep HIS commandments= God's people

 

[MB]

Could the "National I.D." be (or become later) the Mark of the Beast?


Answer: No

The Mark of the Beast has to do with those who DO NOT keep the commandments of God... all you have to do is look at the characteristics of God's people who DO NOT have the Mark of the Beast to figure out the characteristics of those who DO. see below:


Revelation 14:
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.



Note that the Mark of the Beast is in the forehead or hand... and the commandments were to be in the forehead and hand. You will have either Satan's mark or God's mark.

Deuteronomy 6:
1: Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you
8: And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

I'm sorry but we cannot live by the law. You can't and neither can I.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Keeping the Law is work and Paul said;
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Something to keep in mind is that we are to worship God everyday not just one day a week. Everytime a man prays, man is worshipping God.
MB

 

[Eric B]

The end times one world religion will not be "Christianity", I don't believe. Perhaps it will be dominent because of its stronghold in the West, but I think the end times one world religion will be a comprimised form of all, if not mainly the major religions.

All religions have some point of truth where it agrees with all others. Normally it is in the false teaching that we could be gods or like god (not in the sense of righteousness but in ways we would see as blasphemous).

SO, if "Christianity" does fall into the end times one world religion it will be in a very warped form and unlike even the comprimised church we have today.

Yeah, that's what makes it seem really unlikely that they would be enforcing some Sunday Law. They won't even be respecting Christ that much!

 

[DHK]

Could the "National I.D." be (or become later) the Mark of the Beast?


Answer: No

The Mark of the Beast has to do with those who DO NOT keep the commandments of God... all you have to do is look at the characteristics of God's people who DO NOT have the Mark of the Beast to figure out the characteristics of those who DO. see below:

That's foolishness and totally unsubstantiated by Scripture. But then so are all the other theories that are floating around.
The fact is that it really doesn't matter. I won't be here when it happens.

 

[Claudia_T]

Well its just too bad the passage doesnt warn about the Mark of the Beast then instead of saying "Here are God's people, here are they that keep the Commandments of God" it would say "Here are God's people, here are they that dont receive the computer chip"...

Then EVERYBODY would understand that this means Satans people DO receive the computer chip.

Now see how easy that was?


Even a kid could figure that one out. and it would be so easy because it would be what everybody wanted to hear.


Nahhhhhhhhh I'll bet everyone would read that and just act like they dont see it and then they'd make something else up.


Hey! Ive got an idea! Ya think maybe since the Mark of the Beast and God's wrath being pour out without mercy is the most dire warning ever given to mankind that MAYBE He might of been nice enough to give us a little CLUE in the passage about what the Mark of the Beast is?


NOOOOOOOOOOO why would He do a thing like that? He just loves to see us squirm and wonder and worry and speculate about it. Worry about getting the plagues poured out upon us and Him not even bother to help us know what we are or arent supposed to do to avoid receiving them.

*all said in sarcasm of course, due to the absurdity of this whole thing

Claudia