coverings & such

[DHK]

I would like to see what you would do if a woman walked up to the pulpit and started preaching :laugh:

If I recall, you stated you encourage all women to wear head covering. Since you are the pastor, why is this not a command? Are women allowed to wear pants in your church?

I would like to see you post a reasonable post in this conversation.

 

[webdog]

I would like to see you not insult me on this thread.

 

[webdog]

Can women wear pants in your church, DHK? I don't think you answered that (reasonable enough, eh?).

 

[Eliyahu]

I have not seen any Woman Pastors wearing Head-covering when they preach the gospels. ( Sermon is a prophesying because it prophesy either the first coming or the second coming of Jesus)

Various types of disobedience are connected each other.

This is a matter of Obedience, and the Joy and the Peace come from the Obedience to God, because the Power to overcome the wickedness of this world comes from heaven when we obey His Words.

1 Samuel 15:22

22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

I trust Obedience is better than the thousands of Ph D, or thousands of Joyce Meyers.

I was one of such disobedient but intelligent and Knowledge pursuing believers in Jesus Christ even after I was born again, and refused even the Baptism by immersion since I was already baptized by sprinkling before. Continuously God convicted me of the difference between my thinking and believing and the actual life of mine. Then I started to kneel down in the presence of God.

Thereafter I was baptized by immersion and started to accept all the commandments shown in the NT. Thereafter I have found the peace and joy in Jesus Christ.

God blesses His obedient servants.

 

[DHK]

I would like to see you not insult me on this thread.

Your posts of late have been insulting to one's intelligence Webdog. If you don't want to engage in meaningful dialogue then drop out of the debate or conversation. You talk about insulting. Go back and read your own post; better yet I will quote it for you and then answer it in kind:

I would like to see what you would do if a woman walked up to the pulpit and started preaching :laugh:

If you are the pastor:
I would like to see you, if you brought a Muslim friennd and he walked up to the pulpit and started preaching Islam, what would you do?
What would you do if someone was drunk or stoned walked up to the pulpit and started preaching?
What if a Hindu walked up to the pulpit and started preaching; what would you do?
What would you do if a known pedophile and homosexual walked up to your pulpit and started preaching?

Your question is insulting to the intelligence. Need I answer it??

 

[webdog]

Care to answer the other one I have asked, now, for the third time?

 

[DHK]

Can women wear pants in your church, DHK? I don't think you answered that (reasonable enough, eh?).

The church isn't mine; it is the Lord's.
We invite any and all to come no matter what they are wearing.
We pray that when unbelievers come that they will be saved.
We pray that the believers will be challenged to live holy lives, and obedient lives.
Christianity is not like Islam.
Christianity involves a personal walk with God; a personal relationship with Christ.
In Islam women are forced to be subservient to their men, even to the extent that when they are not and immorality is even perceived then "honor killings" are in order. We do not force slavery on our women. We teach the Bible and trust that through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ a person will grow in grace and knowledge and by conviction of the Holy Spirit come to obey Him in all things.
I trust that answers your question.

 

[webdog]

I trust that answers your question.

Not really...but if they can come and wear whatever they want, clearly you don't agree with that, I'd hope!

 

[DHK]

Not really...but if they can come and wear whatever they want, clearly you don't agree with that, I'd hope!

That is like saying: If your definition of a church is "an assembly composed of baptized regenerated persons...", then obviously you need to bar the door to all unsaved people. Your logic is astounding!

 

[webdog]

That is like saying: If your definition of a church is "an assembly composed of baptized regenerated persons...", then obviously you need to bar the door to all unsaved people. Your logic is astounding!

I don't recall saying any of that...so that cannot be my logic, obviously.

I find it odd that you hold to such legalism in regards to hat wearing for believing women while praying...but then do not state a position on if they can wear pants...and then openly invite everyone in "just as they are". If you hold to legalistic standards...hold to all of them.

 

[Zenas]

It's hard to believe this thread is drawing so much controversy. A man would not wear a hat if he were invited to dine at the White House. He would not be permitted to wear a hat in most our courtrooms. He certainly would not wear a hat in my mother's house. Military protocol usually requires that hats be removed indoors. So why would you want to wear a hat while worshiping the King of Kings? To even raise this as an issue shows a total absence of proper upbringing and cultural civility.

 

[webdog]

A man would not wear a hat if he were invited to dine at the White House. He would not be permitted to wear a hat in most our courtrooms. He certainly would not wear a hat in my mother's house. Military protocol usually requires that hats be removed indoors. So why would you want to wear a hat while worshiping the King of Kings?

Probably 'cause God can care less what we wear? He wants our hearts...not our hat-less heads.

To even raise this as an issue shows a total absence of proper upbringing and cultural civility.

What a ridiculous thing to say. You have a lot of nerve. How dare you question how I was raised!
Continue to dress to the "t" while judging your fellow brethern exactly how the Pharisees did. Sad...

 

[DHK]

Probably 'cause God can care less what we wear? He wants our hearts...not our hat-less heads.

According to 1Cor.11 that is not true. According to all the Scripture on modesty (and there is lots of them), that is not true. God cares a lot more than just the "heart" as you say. However, if the heart is right, then what is on the outside of the heart will also be right.

What a ridiculous thing to say. You have a lot of nerve. How dare you question how I was raised!

Perhaps not. You were raised in a generation that has been sadly lacking in culture and etiquette. It is something that the public schools no longer teach. The religious foundation of the public schools is humanism which is atheistic in its nature. The only absolute, they say, is "There are not absolutes." Everything is relative. That is the reason you can say or justify yourself in saying, "It may be right for you to teach your women to wear hats, but it is not right for me to do so." That is humanism. It is ignoring the Scriptural mandate of the Bible and using humanistic rationalism to justify oneself. Here is some evidence to back up my assertions.
Marie Acomb Riley, the wife of W.B. Riley, was the Dean of women at Northwestern College in Minneapolis. During that time she wrote, “Handbook of Christian Etiquette,” published by Moody Press originally in 1945. Robert G. Lee writes the forward. On pages 46 and 47 she writes:

In lecture halls and churches:
There is no place where greater dignity of manner is required than in the church building. We sorely need reverence in American churches. We need to be on time. In any public gathering where seats are to be found, the following rules apply:

If there is no usher, the gentleman (first removing his hat and overcoat at the rear of the building) precedes the lady in looking for a seat, and when he reaches the seats stands aside and lets the lady go in first.
When there are ushers, the usher goes down the aisle first—then the lady, then here escort. A lady never sits in the aisle seat if she is with a gentleman.
When it is necessary to pass in front of people to reach a seat, one always faces the platform and presses as closely as possible to the back of the seats one faces. In doing so one says “Thank you” or “I beg your pardon.” It is very bad form before a service or a lecture to stand up and glare around in search of a familiar face, then nod and smile conspicuously to a friend in some other part of the audience.
“The broad hint of a Sunday-school teacher taught me that it was unnecessary that I should know who came in every time the door opened, and that most people were able to get their seats without my watchful upon them” writes a correspondent of a religious paper, in speaking of church behavior. “Before that, my head went around as though on a swivel if I heard a footstep. Now the king of France and ten thousand men may enter the sanctuary, but my face shall be set like a flint Zionward—by which I mean toward the pulpit.”

Amy Vanderbilt’s book on etiquette has been a standard for the secular word for many years now. Basic etiquette doesn’t change much. Since I have a couple of books in my library I don’t go every year or so and get the newest updates. Basic etiquette is common sense. Here is what Vanderbilt says in answer to a lady’s question about dressing for church.

”I occasionally visit churches other than my own when visiting friends. What is the etiquette regarding proper dress in the different places of worship?” (Mrs. J.P., Jacksonville, Florida)

We wear conservative “best” clothes, and we tastefully refrain from wearing extreme hats or bright clothes that would seem to distract the other worshipers from their meditations. In the Roman Catholic church and Orthodox synagogues, hats for women are required. In Protestant Episcopal churches, Conservative and Reform synagogues, hats for women are requested. In many other denominations women usually do wear hats to church on the Sabbath (Christian), as well as gloves. Churches throughout the country are open for prayer and meditation during the week, however, and this raises the question as to whether or not one must hesitate to enter a church in working clothes. Of course one need not. The door is open to invite anyone who wishes to enter for spiritual refreshment. However, the hat convention can be followed very simply by a woman even when she has no hat with her. She merely covers her head when she enters with a handkerchief or scarf and leaves it in place until she goes out.

“Amy Vanderbilt’s Everyday Etiquette,” by Amy Vanderbilt, 1956, p. 236.

What has been proper etiquette for years, even centuries, just does not change in a few years because the last generation or so have not been taught the social graces. Instead they prefer to either remain ignorant of them, or despise the old fashioned paths that their elders took. It is a mark of rebellion—a combination of both rebellion and the standard of education that is found in public schools of today. I am not sure which. But it remains plain that not only does the Bible teach that women should wear a head covering and men not, in the church; but good etiquette, historically, has always taught the same thing.

 

[Eliyahu]

It's hard to believe this thread is drawing so much controversy. A man would not wear a hat if he were invited to dine at the White House. He would not be permitted to wear a hat in most our courtrooms. He certainly would not wear a hat in my mother's house. Military protocol usually requires that hats be removed indoors. So why would you want to wear a hat while worshiping the King of Kings? To even raise this as an issue shows a total absence of proper upbringing and cultural civility.

But people like to rebel against God. They try to find any ways if possible, to disobey God by any means.

That's why RCC priests wear hats though their women believers wear the coverings correctly.

Jewish Rabbi's and Muslim Imams may not have any teachings for the hats at all.

 

[Melanie]

But people like to rebel against God. They try to find any ways if possible, to disobey God by any means.

That's why RCC priests wear hats though their women believers wear the coverings correctly.

Jewish Rabbi's and Muslim Imams may not have any teachings for the hats at all.

I dont know where you get your stuff from, but at the begining of Mass the priest processes up to the altar with the Gospel in procession preceeding him wearing his vestments and biretta. At the foot of the altar he uncovers his head as one would expect...the biretta is worn when the homily is given and he doffs his hat when speaking the name of the Lord, at the end of Mass when he leaves the sanctuary he wears his biretta.

Men and boys do not wear hats at Mass and there is a dress code expected, as with the women and girls.

 

[Eric B]

According to 1Cor.11 that is not true. According to all the Scripture on modesty (and there is lots of them), that is not true. God cares a lot more than just the "heart" as you say. However, if the heart is right, then what is on the outside of the heart will also be right.

Perhaps not. You were raised in a generation that has been sadly lacking in culture and etiquette. It is something that the public schools no longer teach. The religious foundation of the public schools is humanism which is atheistic in its nature. The only absolute, they say, is "There are not absolutes." Everything is relative. That is the reason you can say or justify yourself in saying, "It may be right for you to teach your women to wear hats, but it is not right for me to do so." That is humanism. It is ignoring the Scriptural mandate of the Bible and using humanistic rationalism to justify oneself. Here is some evidence to back up my assertions.
Marie Acomb Riley, the wife of W.B. Riley, was the Dean of women at Northwestern College in Minneapolis. During that time she wrote, “Handbook of Christian Etiquette,” published by Moody Press originally in 1945. Robert G. Lee writes the forward. On pages 46 and 47 she writes:

Amy Vanderbilt’s book on etiquette has been a standard for the secular word for many years now. Basic etiquette doesn’t change much. Since I have a couple of books in my library I don’t go every year or so and get the newest updates. Basic etiquette is common sense. Here is what Vanderbilt says in answer to a lady’s question about dressing for church.

“Amy Vanderbilt’s Everyday Etiquette,” by Amy Vanderbilt, 1956, p. 236.

What has been proper etiquette for years, even centuries, just does not change in a few years because the last generation or so have not been taught the social graces. Instead they prefer to either remain ignorant of them, or despise the old fashioned paths that their elders took. It is a mark of rebellion—a combination of both rebellion and the standard of education that is found in public schools of today. I am not sure which. But it remains plain that not only does the Bible teach that women should wear a head covering and men not, in the church; but good etiquette, historically, has always taught the same thing.

Again, this is precisely why all became relative. Removing hats was upheld as a "culturally civil" mandate, but the same people in the past somehow did not think the way they treated other groups of people, or how they got this land, or even how they dominated over women was "uncivil". They thought nothing of it, but still considered themselves "moral" and "civilized". ("that's just the way they did things back then", we often hear in defense today. But then if they did everything right, and modern society is always wrong about everything, maybe we should go back to those things too!) That is why it was all upturned these last generations. This did not occur in a vacuum; like all of a sudden, this one generation just decided to "rebel", because they did not like "God's rules". (These generations are a product of the ones before. They were not just dropped here by Satan, and otherwise unconnected to the previous civilization).
Again, the only rule God had about hats was in Church, so right there, to take that and raise it to any house or building is not God's rule, but rather later Western society's own addition. To elevate the entire Western "etiquette" of rules like removing hats in all buildings to "moral" Biblical mandate (like the Law against killing, stealing, lying adultery or "immodesty" in the sense of being sexually provocative, etc. which we can say you cannot have a "civil" society without) is to relativize morality (especially when those true matters of the Law are often ignored or bent), and if our "culturally conservative" leaders are the ones doing that, they can't then blame their children for growing up confused, believing in relativity, and then rebelling against the whole thing.

 

[convicted1]

Hats in church

Personally, I don't see the point in wearing a hat in church.

Just something I never thought of doing.

If you're outside for some reason, maybe, but I've never even thought of it, and I used to have quite a collection of Atlanta Braves caps.



Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

Dustin,

In regards to men wearing hats in the church, the churches I go to, when the men come in, if they are wearing their hats, they take it off as soon as they step inside, if not while they are walking up the steps. I don't think it would be a sin to wear it in church, but having not seen a man wear one during service, it would feel "different". The churches around here, most have a rack nailed along the wall, that has hangers on to it, so that the men and women can put their coats, and yes their hats, too. As far a women wearing them, the only ones I can really remember wearing them are the ladies who lost their hair do to radiation or chemo treatments. I hope this help with the OP!!

 

[Eliyahu]

I dont know where you get your stuff from, but at the begining of Mass the priest processes up to the altar with the Gospel in procession preceeding him wearing his vestments and biretta. At the foot of the altar he uncovers his head as one would expect...the biretta is worn when the homily is given and he doffs his hat when speaking the name of the Lord, at the end of Mass when he leaves the sanctuary he wears his biretta.

Men and boys do not wear hats at Mass and there is a dress code expected, as with the women and girls.

In fact I have not seen specifically the scene of the official praying with the hats on but noticed the Pope or Cardinal was preaching a sermon to the people, which was apparently a type of prophesying and also was accompanied by the prayers. I didn't notice they were taking off the hats. Popes and Cardinals are exceptions to the Bible teachings? I never saw Pope was taking off the threefold hat in order to pray or to preach a sermon. Those cases are the official prayers and public sermon, which cannot be the exceptions to the Bible teachings, not the private prayers.

I know the Catholic women believers do wear the Coverings correctly in most countries, but not mostly in Canada as far as I know.

 

[Eliyahu]

When Paul explained that Men shoud not wear Head-coverings while Women should, he explained it by explaining the Head-ship of God the Father-Jesus Christ-Men-Women.

I want to challenge the people who claim that the teachings on Head-Covering is a cultural matter, with the following questions:

1) Is the Head-ship mentioned in 1 Cor 11 a cultural matter?

2) Paul explained that Christ is the Head of men, was this a culture effective only during the Roman Empire era?

3) Women were created out of men, was it a cultural matter which was effective only during Roman Empire, not in the era of Evolution?

4) Women are supposed to wear Head-Covering because of the angels, what does it mean ? Was it effective only during the Roman Empire?
There is no angels now, do you think so?

5) Men are not the Heads of Women any more in this feminists era, are they? That's why you decided to conform to this World ( Rom 12:2), right?

If you can throw away the doctrines of Head-Covering, then you can disbelieve the Creation by God, Headship of Jesus Christ too!

Check why Paul ask the women who don't want to have head-covering should be shaved ( shorn) (verse 6 of 1 Cor11), and why Men should not wear any covering on top of heads.

Is the Creation of Universe by God a cultural truth or eternal truth?

1 Cor 11:
But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

If God's Creation was a myth which was effective only during Roman Empire, you may ignore the teachings on Head-Covering in 1 Cor 11.

 

[rbell]

(runs in)

I just wanna say hats off to all the posters on this thread.

(runs out)