Crucified with Him- No longer Serving Sin

[Claudia_T]

If people do not mind, I would like for them to please stay confined within these Bible verses here as much as possible.
I do not see, truly, how anybody can read verses such as these and somehow come away with the idea that God somehow thinks that it is allright now for us to sin, since we are "Under Grace".

Now I am trying very hard not to have these ideas that some are dishonest, because believe me it is difficult for me not to think that, and I am sure those thoughts have gone through other's minds as well. Truly, how can anyone honestly say after just reading this one passage OUTLOUD sitting there at their own computers... that grace means we can now sin and still get to heaven?

PLEASE actually, I am asking you, the Reader of this post, to sit there and read this OUTLOUD there where you are and then tell me honestly that you can say this passage here is telling YOU that God says it is allright to sin now and that you will still go to heaven.

Keep in mind that the ONLY DEFINITION given in the Bible about SIN is this:

1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


and for God's sake, the first two verses ought to be enough!


and while you are at it, pay attention to WHAT IS YOUR HOPE!! What IS IT that makes it where you will be raised with Christ? WHY will we have eternal life? HINT: verses 3-5 and 20-23



READ PLEASE: (outloud to yourself, common now, you can do it!)

Romans 6
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20: For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


And truly, in all honesty, my friends, dont you think after reading that, that if you read other passages about grace in the Bible and think it is allright to sin, that you are misunderstanding them?

Claudia

 

[Dustin]

If people do not mind, I would like for them to please stay confined within these Bible verses here as much as possible.
I do not see, truly, how anybody can read verses such as these and somehow come away with the idea that God somehow thinks that it is allright now for us to sin, since we are "Under Grace".

Now I am trying very hard not to have these ideas that some are dishonest, because believe me it is difficult for me not to think that, and I am sure those thoughts have gone through other's minds as well. Truly, how can anyone honestly say after just reading this one passage OUTLOUD sitting there at their own computers... that grace means we can now sin and still get to heaven?

PLEASE actually, I am asking you, the Reader of this post, to sit there and read this OUTLOUD there where you are and then tell me honestly that you can say this passage here is telling YOU that God says it is allright to sin now and that you will still go to heaven.

Keep in mind that the ONLY DEFINITION given in the Bible about SIN is this:

1Jn:3:4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


and for God's sake, the first two verses ought to be enough!


and while you are at it, pay attention to WHAT IS YOUR HOPE!! What IS IT that makes it where you will be raised with Christ? WHY will we have eternal life? HINT: verses 3-5 and 20-23



READ PLEASE: (outloud to yourself, common now, you can do it!)

Romans 6
1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20: For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21: What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


And truly, in all honesty, my friends, dont you think after reading that, that if you read other passages about grace in the Bible and think it is allright to sin, that you are misunderstanding them?

Claudia

I don't think anyone here is saying it's ok to sin. Sin exactly what 1 John 3:4 says it is, and as far as I know, no one is arguing against that. But it's also very clear if you read Romans 7 that justified sinners still battle sin in thier lives, and more often than not fail.

Case in point, when I was converted, I stopped drinking large amounts of alcohol and getting drunk. Does that make me any more holy in God's sight? No, it doesn't. I still get angry from time to time, I have a slip of the tounge and say profanity, I even entertain thoughts that I shouldn't entertain. Are those things ok? No they aren't, I hate it when I do them.

There are times when I want to read my Bible or I want to read some Puritan writings and I get sidetrackied somehow. There are times when I know I should be praising God in prayer, but I end up falling asleep prayerless, or the feeble prayers I do offer up leave much to be desired. There are times when I do something and I know I should repent and I do repent, but in all honesty, what work of repentence is truly good enough for our most Holy and Righteous God?

I say yea and amen to Romans 6, how can we live any longer in sin? But I have to admit that Romans 7 desribes my everyday life. It's a grueling everyday battle against the world. the flesh and the devil. More often than not I lose, but thanks be to God, I have rightousness in Christ Jesus. Does that mean I say "oh well, I'm saved, let me go ahead and sin, because I couldn't stop anyway."? NO, God forbid! I try to be as Paul and the Puritans and the Reformers, I try to mortify sin in my mortal body. But I'm not always successful, but by grace I still try. But I don't think that just because I stopped drinking alcohol and stopped taking the Lord's name in vain on purpose, that I'm any holier than someone who does. Because I am not.


No matter how many things you put off, you're still a sinner. But by grace through faith in Jesus Christ you are justified. Then you are continually sanctified by the Holy Spirit. These are things that God does. We are truly under grace, not the law, because if we were under law, then we'd all be in a lot of trouble. I think that the statement about we are not under law, has something to do with Christ being the end of the law for all those who believe. We stop looking to the law for righteousness, and we look to Christ alone.


I have to go now, or else I'm gonna be late for work.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 6 argues that we should not live corrupt lives as those people live prior to conversion and Christ said "by their fruits you SHALL know them".

Sometimes people argue that this is not true - and that the saints are just as corrupt as the wicked.

In Romans 6 Paul argues that "YOU ARE THE SLAVE of the one you serve either of SIN resulting in death or of righteousness".

You can not use Romans 7 against Romans 6. Both are saying the same thing. Slavery to sin is sign of the unsaved unregenerate heart. STRUGGLE with sin is the sin of the saved.

And Romans 7 does NOT say that "more often than not" the saints fail to avail themselves of the promises of God.

in 1John 2:1 John says "these things I write to you that you SIN NOT - but IF anyone sins we have an advocate with the father".

Others revise this as "these things I write to you to show that you can not actually stop sinning - and if anyone does that too shall pass and they will lapse back into non-step transgression".

But another point in the Romans 6 argument is that the LAW that DEFINES sin - still EXISTS because it still shows what "slavery to sin" is -- for those who constantly break it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Speaking of "Slavery to Sin" that is talked about in Romans 6, --Jesus actually said the same thing here:


John 8:
32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33: They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34: Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35: And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36: If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


See how the truth does not change? so much for "we are the elect and so God says we cannot sin even though we do" idea.

and we arent "free" from the Law! Go back and read what Jesus said we are to be "free" from. It says the same in Romans Chapter 6.



Claudia

 

[J. Jump]

Until we realize that there is no "test" or "sign" as to whether someone is saved or not discussions like these will continue to go on and unfortunately a great many Christians will be unfortunately yoked and burdened by works and forever wondering if they are saved or not. They will always be wondering if they did enough works or the right kind of works.

As long as works and eternal (spiritual) salvation are used in the same breath mistakes are going to be made. Nowhere in Scripture does God ever require a "test" or a "sign" that one is saved. I don't know why we humans do. That has always puzzled me.

I guess it's just something about adding to what God already said. My experience in visiting with pastoral search committees is the same way. God has His standards for pastors and then the search committee adds their own on top of that.

Let's just be satisfied with what God has said whether it makes any human sense to us or not, or whether we like what has been said or not.

 

[Allan]

If you will stop believing what you are told and listen to those you are speaking with you will us say:
IT IS NOT ALRIGHT TO SIN !!! But the fact we do sin at times does not change anything.
Paul, one of the greatest men of faith said this JUST AFTER chapter 6:

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Though our spirit has been cleansed and untouclable by sin our flesh in which we live is still corrupt. This is why we need to renew our minds daily that we may live lives not after the flesh but the Spirit.

You went off track first :thumbs:

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We WILL sin but we should not live lives OF sin. We are to pursue a life that seperates us from sin. As we grow in Christ He reveals constantly those areas that have not been brought in our lives under submission to His authority and manner of life. Anyone who thinks they don't sin is an out right Liar! (according to scripture) One sin ALL men are consistantly guilty of with regard to the commandments (I don't care who you are) Is to love the Lord with all your heart, mind and strength. There has never been a person alive to abey that commandment in full, but we are to obey it. Therefore we are ALL guilty of breaking the very commandments Jesus said keep. All born agian children of God desire to love God like this but on this side of heaven we all fall short and therefore it is sin. But what a Joy to strive in keeping it.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

We are considered to have no sin because we are in Christ who is sinless. When God sees us He sees us in Christ who is sinless and so we share that same state.

 

[BobRyan]

Nowhere in Scripture does God ever require a "test" or a "sign" that one is saved. I don't know why we humans do. That has always puzzled me.

This is not a subject where we all get together and test other people to see if they are saved. But we CAN accept the Word of God on this point.

Matt 7

13 "" Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 ""For the gate is small and the way is narrow[/b] that leads to life, and there are few who find it.[/b]

15 ""Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 ""You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, [b]but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Though our spirit has been cleansed and untouclable by sin our flesh in which we live is still corrupt. This is why we need to renew our minds daily that we may live lives not after the flesh but the Spirit.

James makes it clear (as does Christ in Mark 7) that it is from the heart - from the THOUGHTs from the mind that sin comes and sin defiles.

Paul argues that the new-creation the "inward man" is created in agreement with the Law of God under the New Covenant "I will WRITE My law upon their heart".

But it is not the body that claims promises in 1Cor 10 and the way of escape -- it is the inner man - the new creation is getting the 1Cor 10 victory taking the way of escape.

Otherwise the helpless saint is still held bondage to sin and rebellion.

This is why we HAVE Romans 8 (the solution) following Romans 7 "the problem".

Romans 8 shows us that the solution is to literally walk after the Spirit and "by faith to put to DEATH the deeds of the flesh".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Allan]

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



James makes it clear (as does Christ in Mark 7) that it is from the heart - from the THOUGHTs from the mind that sin comes and sin defiles.

Paul argues that the new-creation the "inward man" is created in agreement with the Law of God under the New Covenant "I will WRITE My law upon their heart".

But it is not the body that claims promises in 1Cor 10 and the way of escape -- it is the inner man - the new creation is getting the 1Cor 10 victory taking the way of escape.

Otherwise the helpless saint is still held bondage to sin and rebellion.

This is why we HAVE Romans 8 (the solution) following Romans 7 "the problem".

Romans 8 shows us that the solution is to literally walk after the Spirit and "by faith to put to DEATH the deeds of the flesh".

In Christ,

Bob

Our salvation doesn't come from walking after the Spirit but something that is done by the one indwelt by the Spirit. We can still walk after the flesh but God (as a Father should) will bust our behinds and will bring us back into proper fellowship once again. I agree that there is NOW no condemnation (judgment) for those in Christ. But least we bring shame to God through our lives God is establishing a teaching through Paul that shows a believer who to walk as a true disciple should. Romans is the basic Hand guide to our life as a born again Child of God.

 

[BobRyan]

I almost agree with you. The first step in walking by the Spirit comes when the Spirit "convicts" us of sin and righteousness and judgment.

It is when we hear that knocking at the door and then choose to go and open it -- resulting in the Rev 3 promised fellowship with Christ.

"As you have RECEIVED Christ Jesus SO WALK in Him" Col 2:6

Our daily Christian walk flows out of that first step in choosing salvation - choosing repentance, choosing to open the door. THEN the TREE having been newly created - newly "made good" produced Good fruit - the walking in the Spirit in sanctification seen in Romans 8. Romans 7 is justification without the ongoing soluiton of sanctification. Romans 8 combines both!

Christ argues in John 3 that even THAT FIRST step is done in response to the working of the Holy Spirit within us.

in Romans 2 Paul argues that the circumcision of the heart in the Gospel new birth is done via the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Allan]

I almost agree with you. The first step in walking by the Spirit comes when the Spirit "convicts" us of sin and righteousness and judgment.

It is when we hear that knocking at the door and then choose to go and open it -- resulting in the Rev 3 promised fellowship with Christ.

"As you have RECEIVED Christ Jesus SO WALK in Him" Col 2:6

Our daily Christian walk flows out of that first step in choosing salvation - choosing repentance, choosing to open the door. THEN the TREE having been newly created - newly "made good" produced Good fruit - the walking in the Spirit in sanctification seen in Romans 8. Romans 7 is justification without the ongoing soluiton of sanctification. Romans 8 combines both!

Christ argues in John 3 that even THAT FIRST step is done in response to the working of the Holy Spirit within us.

in Romans 2 Paul argues that the circumcision of the heart in the Gospel new birth is done via the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

Bob

But a persons walk is something they continue in by nature. But there is another nature that wars within them, that of the flesh. What I mean by that is the natural man which is in union with the [corrupt] flesh. Paul espouses this same understanding by saying

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

The natural man is that which wars against the spiritual man. This is why we find Paul stating other things like: "...my spirit is willing but my flesh is weak..." and is the same reason Paul states this later in Romans:

Rom 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Because unless we renew our minds (change our way of thinking) we will consistantly look and live just like the world. We live our lives in the Spirit or better unto God that the World may see that Gods will is Good, without flaw, and acceptable or agreeable. But we must keep and live our lives in before the eyes of God so we can know what is pleasing to Him with regard to what we are doing.

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed. The natural man is the personification of the sinful nature and the "inward man" the personification of the "new Creation" that comes about at the New Birth.

in Romans 7 Paul shows us the struggle that they are engaged in.

"Within ME" (Paul's words) the PERSON, there is war between these two natures-- once I am a Christian.

But Romans 8 shows the solution (this side of glorification) to be perseverance in "walking after the spirit and NOT after the flesh".

It shows us that the BY the Spirit we can "put to death the deeds of the flesh".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[rbell]

If people do not mind, I would like for them to please stay confined within these Bible verses here as much as possible.
I do not see, truly, how anybody can read verses such as these and somehow come away with the idea that God somehow thinks that it is allright now for us to sin, since we are "Under Grace".

Claudia

Claudia, Please point out one post in which ANYONE has said it is "all right to sin."

I've enjoyed our discussions, but this is getting tiresome. No one has said that.

I don't know a BB poster that would disagree in any way with Romans 6:1.

 

[Claudia_T]

is this the joke of the day or what?:applause:


Good One!

 

[Allan]

I'm a lurker in this section for the most part. I have steadily read these posts (including the ridiculous Alien ones- But I had to get in that) And I have to agree with completely with rbell. I haven't 'seen' and posting in which a persons says once saved your cleard to live a life of sin or even as a christian it is OK to sin. No one has said this.

What has been stated time and time again (along with scriptures to bear it out) is that we are GOING to sin (since we are in sinful flesh and have a mind in need of constant re-newing) but we are not to live IN sin.

 

[rbell]

claudia,

Please put up a post in which anyone has said, "It's all right to sin."

Thanks,
Rbell

 

[Claudia_T]

claudia,

"It's all right to sin."

Thanks,
Rbell

well that was really easy to find

 

[rbell]

well that was really easy to find

cute:tongue3:

Now...can you really find a post in which a poster was saying that it is all right to sin?

That's an important distinction worth making. That indictment has been implied before...but IMO it is baseless.

But if I'm wrong, then show me, please.

 

[Claudia_T]

No of course they dont say it in exactly that way.

 

[rbell]

Then by implying that folks believe such...isn't that a mis-characterization of their position?
I believe you're asking this more in the rhetorical sense...but even though I've posted this statement:

All sin is an affront to a Holy God. May we be as bothered by sin as God is.

yet, in the same thread, I (and others) would be accused of being "soft on sin," or "coddling sin," and even "reveling in sin."

I don't think the argument is how God views sin. It would seem to me that all of us are in agreement on that.