Cults, Christian Faith and Practice

[BobRyan]

The OP said this:
"What must I believe in to be saved? What are the basic beliefs one must hold to be accepted by God as a child of His?"

Thus, my response was given.
What does John the Baptist have to do with it? What does he have to do with the Trinity? Is it the Trinity that you are having difficulty with? I really don't understand.

I don't have any objection to the Trinity as a doctrine - but if you make "it" a differentiator in the OP context of "cult vs no cult" then you are condemning John the baptizer and all who followed him.

I can not go that far with it sir as I stated in my first few posts on page 1.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Zenas]

Has anyone met a person who admits to belonging to a cult?

 

[SBCPreacher]

I don't have any objection to the Trinity as a doctrine - but if you make "it" a differentiator in the OP context of "cult vs no cult" then you are condemning John the baptizer and all who followed him.

I can not go that far with it sir as I stated in my first few posts on page 1.

in Christ,

Bob

Salvation is only by faith in the God of the Bible. Now, the God of the Bible is a Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. If I place my faith in a god that is not the God of the Bible, then my faith is useless and I am still lost. Therefore, one must believe in the deity of Christ, the He is God, part of the Trinity.

The Mormon god won't do. The JW god won't do. Allah won't do. They are not the God of the Bible. Can someone be saved by placing their faith in another god? No, they can't.

 

[BobRyan]

So ... umm .. back to the point of my post.

You "ARE" or "ARE NOT" condemning John the baptizer?

As I said - I am not able to go to the extreme of condemning John because he did not know about the Trinity..

 

[BobRyan]

Has anyone met a person who admits to belonging to a cult?

No I don't.

But the closest you find is that the NT authors claim they ARE a member of what others call "a sect" of Judaism.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[SBCPreacher]

So ... umm .. back to the point of my post.

You "ARE" or "ARE NOT" condemning John the baptizer?

As I said - I am not able to go to the extreme of condemning John because he did not know about the Trinity..

I am condemning no one. I'm simply stating what the Bible says to be true. Do you disagree with something I've said?

 

[SBCPreacher]

Yes - well, sort of. There is a lady who works at our local convenience store who claims to be a wikken (sp??). But, she would not call it a cult.

 

[BobRyan]

I am condemning no one. I'm simply stating what the Bible says to be true. Do you disagree with something I've said?

I do not disagree with the doctrines you list - but in the context of the OP we are supposed to be defining what doctrines draw the line beyond which there is a cult if they do not happen to know them or agree to them and yet claim to follow God.

In the case of John he baptizer I am simply pointing out that he failed your test. And that is the reason I did not add Trinity to my list.

you said (in keeping with the purpose stated in the OP) "(Any) “religion” that denies any of these three are cults, and following any cult doctrine, no matter how sincere you are, leaves you in a lost condition" -- which basically puts John the baptizer on the wrong side of the line you drew.

My list was an attempt to draw a line that would not exclude Bible saints.

 

[SBCPreacher]

you said (in keeping with the purpose stated in the OP) "(Any) “religion” that denies any of these three are cults, and following any cult doctrine, no matter how sincere you are, leaves you in a lost condition" -- which basically puts John the baptizer on the wrong side of the line you drew.

My list was an attempt to draw a line that would not exclude Bible saints.

OK, let me rephrase. Any "religion" this side of the cross that denies any of these three are cults. Or, any "religion" today that denies any of these are cults.

Since we have the written Word of God, and the written Word defines God as a Trinity, that's what we must believe today in order to be saved. Now, if you choose to sidetrack or split hairs with John the Baptist, be my guest.

 

[SBCPreacher]

I do not disagree with the doctrines you list - but in the context of the OP we are supposed to be defining what doctrines draw the line beyond which there is a cult if they do not happen to know them or agree to them and yet claim to follow God.

There's the key - "is." Speaking of John the Baptist, that would be a "was."

I'm talking about IS, today. Not the past.

 

[BobRyan]

I need a ruler that works in a bible validated kind of way. So I have to look at the saints in the Bible otherwise you simply have an arbitrary line that amounts to "anyone that does not know as much doctrine as me is a cult". I prefer to draw lines that would not place Bible saints in the camp of a cult.

 

[SBCPreacher]

I need a ruler that works in a bible validated kind of way. So I have to look at the saints in the Bible otherwise you simply have an arbitrary line that amounts to "anyone that does not know as much doctrine as me is a cult". I prefer to draw lines that would not place Bible saints in the camp of a cult.

You can look to the saints in the Bible. I'll just look at the Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

Now see? We find a place to differ after all.

I am not in a position to say that any Bible saint that failed to show an understanding for all the doctrine that I find in the Bible is a cult member.

I am also not in a position to say that people today who believe what the Bible saints believed are cult members.

But I am sure we have other areas where we probably differ as well.

This is just an example of one of them

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR:I am not in a position to say that any Bible saint that failed to show an understanding for all the doctrine that I find in the Bible is a cult member.

I am also not in a position to say that people today who believe what the Bible saints believed are cult members.

But I am sure we have other areas where we probably differ as well.

This is just an example of one of them

HP: In all fairness, does not BR have a valid point about the ‘doctrine of the Trinity’ as NOT being a belief necessary for salvation, and Not a point necessarily that defines a cult or a member of it?

Possibly some might believe that one can be saved and still be a member of a cult?

Did God require a ‘belief in the Trinity’ as accepted now by many denominations, as a condition of salvation and or entrance into His Kingdom? Does Scripture say that one has to have the same concept as say the Baptist Church or Nazarene Church concerning the Trinity in order to be accepted by God as a believer in Jesus and as such part of the family of God?

As BR points out, what about the OT saints including John the Baptist? Did they understand the Trinity as many do today? If not, were they born again, or part of a cult and as such lost?

 

[BobRyan]

John's disciples said to Paul "we are not even aware that there is such a thing as the Holy Spirit" indicating that his teaching to them was not of the form "accept the doctrine of the third person of the Godhead or you are not really a child of God redeemed and bound for heaven".

So while we may now have that doctrine well defined - it is not so certain that John the baptizer was teaching it or was aware of it.

So what of those today who are not "more enlightened than John the baptizer"??

Another key point -- God did not leave it up to us to decide who to accept into heaven. While we all seek to know the maximum amount of truth discernable through solid sola-scriptura methods we are not in a position to say that those who know less than we do - who only know as much as the Bible saints -- can not go to heaven.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

It's not about "knowing less" doctrine; it's about deliberately twisting the Bible in order to get one's preconceived doctines in there. The grups we call "cults" do not confess ignorance like John's disciples did. No, they claim we are the ones who are ignorant and lost, or even among some that we might not be lost, but are nevertheless wrong and disobedient to some ignored or forgotten aspect of God's Word that only they get right.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eric: It's not about "knowing less" doctrine; it's about deliberately twisting the Bible in order to get one's preconceived doctines in there. The grups we call "cults" do not confess ignorance like John's disciples did. No, they claim we are the ones who are ignorant and lost, or even among some that we might not be lost, but are nevertheless wrong and disobedient to some ignored or forgotten aspect of God's Word that only they get right.

HP: Are those in what you call a cult outside of the faith and in a lost state? Must they first get properly educated on doctrines such as how some view the Trinity before they can repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ?

 

[BobRyan]

It's not about "knowing less" doctrine; it's about deliberately twisting the Bible in order to get one's preconceived doctines in there. The grups we call "cults" do not confess ignorance like John's disciples did. No, they claim we are the ones who are ignorant and lost, or even among some that we might not be lost, but are nevertheless wrong and disobedient to some ignored or forgotten aspect of God's Word that only they get right.

Sounds like the stuff "some" Calvinists say about Arminians - do you not agree?

 

[BobRyan]

No, they claim we are the ones who are ignorant and lost, or even among some that we might not be lost, but are nevertheless wrong and disobedient to some ignored or forgotten aspect of God's Word that only they get right.

Are you defending the practice of slicing and dicing God's word or are you saying that the cults invent new parts of God's Word that don't exist to hold other Christians accountable to?

 

[Eliyahu]

What are the definitions of the Cults?

1) Are they cults because they don't have a nice building for the church?

2) Are they cults because they are the minority group?

3) Are they cults because they are taught and led by others than the graduates from the Colleges or Seminaries of Theology?

4) Are they cults because they condemn the adulterous pastors?

5) Are they cults because they don't live like the worldly people or rich people?

6) Are they cults because they don't have the pastors or priests?

7) Are they cults because their women believers wear the head-coverings for their worship service?

8) Are they cults because they gather together more than once a week

I am not quoting the rumor about Janet Reno's definition which seems to be a hoax (http://www.hello-newman.com/xwarning.html)

But my son was asked about the denomination where we belong to, by a pastor, then he asked the question about whether we are taught by a pastor graduated from the College of Theology, then he told my son " your church is a cult" But later on we realized that he was reading and referring to the Commentary on Pentateuch written by CH McIntosh who was a member of so-called Plymouth Brethren where our churches belong to.
Sometimes we notice many churches are using our church people drafted tracts for their church advertizements.

What are the definitions for the cults and for the orthodox?
Does God condone any Never-born-again fake Christians just because they are mild and belong to the Morally-Look-Nice group? God is not mocked by any Hypocrites, IMO.