Cults, Christian Faith and Practice

[BobRyan]

BR,

I think you didn't answer my questions about Once-For-All, though I remember you properly answered the question about the salvation itself.

The questions were :

1) Do you believe that the Redemption by the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ is effective Once For All?

2) What do you think can constitute the Loss of the Salvation? Could you illustrate the cases?

I have to admit - I did not see this question on this last page until now. (In the future if I am slow to get to a question please PM me -- I enjoy having this discussion with you).

1. On the cross Christ was the "atoning Sacrifrice" for our sins according to 1John 2:2. This was "once for all" according to Heb 10. In Lev 16 we are shown exactly how that atoning sacrifice fits into the entire process of atonement - a process that according to Lev 16 must INCLUDE the Heb 8 high priestly work of Christ.

2. There are two current "OSAS or the Bible" threads on page 1 of this debate subject area (not this thread) that deal with your question 2 in 10+ page detail.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

I have to admit - I did not see this question on this last page until now. (In the future if I am slow to get to a question please PM me -- I enjoy having this discussion with you).

1. On the cross Christ was the "atoning Sacrifrice" for our sins according to 1John 2:2. This was "once for all" according to Heb 10. In Lev 16 we are shown exactly how that atoning sacrifice fits into the entire process of atonement - a process that according to Lev 16 must INCLUDE the Heb 8 high priestly work of Christ.

Very good. If you believe in the Effect of the Atonement by Jesus Once For All, what do you think would deprive the Believers of the Salvation?

Once a Believer believed, admitted, accepted the Redemption by Jesus Once for All, then if he deny the effect of the Redemption by Jesus, if he reject the Atonement at the Cross, then he could lose the Salvation. However, in that case, I would doubt that he had accepted the Redemption from the beginning. I would doubt that such case can happen.

2. There are two current "OSAS or the Bible" threads on page 1 of this debate subject area (not this thread) that deal with your question 2 in 10+ page detail.

In Christ,

Bob

I will check.

But as for Lev 16, I may differ from you yet.

Lev 16:8-10

Jehovah's goat was killed and was like the death of Jesus.

Scapegoat was sent out to the wilderness, like the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

Scapegoat is the translation from Azazel which is the combination of AZ (goat) +Azel ( go away, departure, exodus)

If you read the following you can have a better understanding:

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H05799&Version=kjv

Namely, Scapegoat was for the Entire Removal, Absolute Separation.

To Jesus, it was like the Resurrection and the Ascension.

To the believers, the absolute separation from this world.

 

[BobRyan]

Very good. If you believe in the Effect of the Atonement by Jesus Once For All, what do you think would deprive the Believers of the Salvation?

See the OSAS threads on page one of the Other Denominations section of the board - many of us have been going over that in detail.

But as for Lev 16, I may differ from you yet.

Lev 16:8-10

Jehovah's goat was killed and was like the death of Jesus.

Scapegoat was sent out to the wilderness, like the resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

#1. Jesus is never called "our scapegoat" or "The Lord's scapegoat". No not even once in all of scripture.

#2. The Scapegoat is NOT called "a sin offering" once the Lord's Goat has been identified. It does not die a substitutionary atoning death on behalf of anyone.

#3. While the scapegoat is "freed" to wander in the wilderness and die being exposed to the wild animals the "tradition" of the Jews soon became that they would slay the scapegoat outside the camp for fear that it migh wander back into the camp after being set free.

Namely, Scapegoat was for the Entire Removal, Absolute Separation.

To Jesus, it was like the Resurrection and the Ascension.

Agree that it is involved in some way in the final disposition of sin.

However I think that in Lev 16 the solution it provides to sin - is what happens to sins NOT covered by the blood of the lamb in the temple.

The guilt that is placed upon the scapegoat is the guilt that returns to the wicked who have CLAIMED salvation but are in fact among those in Matt 7 -- merely self deceived - who must then pay their own debt of sin in a "nonsubtitutionary" way -- "not a sin offering" for others. And the books are settled on "all sins" -- the debt for "ALL sin" is resolved whether it is for the sins of the saints (debt paid in full by the application of the atoning the blood of Christ shed once for all) or the sins of the wicked (for which there is no sin offering applied to their account to cover their debt but rather the wicked must pay their own debt of sin).

That is why the Scapegoat is never said to be a sin offering and that is why Christ is never said to be "our scapegoat" in all of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Joe]

I was baptized SDA. Ellen White's teachings are embedded throughout the statement of faith (if I recall, that is what they call it) which is the document you agree to believe in upon baptism.

Ellen White is not known as a prophet with SDA's but a messenger from god. She was incarcarated for plagerism. I can't recall her other false beliefs offhand.

We have many SDA friends from our former church, most whom do not believe in Ellen White. The health aspects of this denomination are incredible. Most everyone is vegetarian, or eat only fish and chicken.
Sadly, most of them do not appear to feel secure they are going to heaven, though all will tell you otherwise. They are like robots, doing good works then patting one another on the back for what they have accomplished. Very prideful, though it is not all pride. The pats are comfort to remind one another they are doing what it takes to get into heaven. None will admit this.

They also don't believe in hell, there is only a quick dip in the lake of fire but no eternal punishment. It's an unconscience state of mind. Since there is no real torture aside form the quick dip, I feel it is a license to sin...one can do good works to eliminate the sin one's just committed. They are a very forgiving bunch. Adultery, child molestation, robbery, murder don't seem to alarm them. But you better not be an alcoholic or drug addict, then you are considered evil. None will admit this though.

Edited to add: They also do not believe in the holy spirit.

There were alot of hardcore criminals being coddled at that church when I attended. They were allowed to be around the kids, and lead ministries though they remained in that lifestyle. Often, you would see a few at the river drinking heavily with pre-teen girls. (SDA's are non-drinkers). The women put up with alot of sexual harrassment from the men, as I had to step in once to interviene. This is no big deal to them.

A fairly liberal bunch compared to baptists/other denominations. I do believe a few of our friends are saved, though they are SDA's. I was relieved when we attended the Baptist Church. This stuff just isn't accepted like it was in the SDA church.

Joe

 

[BobRyan]

I too accepted believer's baptism in an SDA church.

 

[Joe]

I too accepted believer's baptism in an SDA church.

Nice to meet you

 

[BobRyan]

Nice to meet you

Welcome to this section of the board!

Always good to have a new poster - more insights more points of view!

SDAs are somewhat Arminian as a denomination (regarding choice and free will) -- do you still hold to that view as well?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Joe]

Welcome to this section of the board!

Always good to have a new poster - more insights more points of view!

SDAs are somewhat Arminian as a denomination (regarding choice and free will) -- do you still hold to that view as well?

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob
Thanks for the warm welcome. Yes, I do hold to that view overall.
I also believe we have an all-knowing God, so he knows what our choices will be before we make them. I am unsure if we will ever understand how this works. I have much studying to do, and this board has helped.

After leaving the SDA church, our family did not attend church for some years. We still attend some of their functions, since our good friends attend there, and we get to see our old friends again.

Since most of my bible study has been with SDA's, I hold to many of their belief systems such as honoring the 7th day as the Sabbath though I have yet to see my reasoning brought up. In all fairness, I haven't had time to read all the posts on the decline of the Sabbath Day. Our diet is similar to the majority of SDA's. I appreciate that I can attend an SDA function, and find so many healthy folks fit enough to ride bikes with our family on the weekends.

Joe

 

[Eliyahu]

See the OSAS threads on page one of the Other Denominations section of the board - many of us have been going over that in detail.

I would rather focus on the Redemption Once for ALL, instead of talking about the OSAS issues which often involves Predestination or Free Will etc.
Jesus's Blood has redeemed us Once for ALL which is effective for any type of our sins unless we rescind or repeal our faith in His Blood.
If anyone had done so, the person must have not believed from the beginning.

#1. Jesus is never called "our scapegoat" or "The Lord's scapegoat". No not even once in all of scripture.

#2. The Scapegoat is NOT called "a sin offering" once the Lord's Goat has been identified. It does not die a substitutionary atoning death on behalf of anyone.

#3. While the scapegoat is "freed" to wander in the wilderness and die being exposed to the wild animals the "tradition" of the Jews soon became that they would slay the scapegoat outside the camp for fear that it migh wander back into the camp after being set free.




Agree that it is involved in some way in the final disposition of sin.

However I think that in Lev 16 the solution it provides to sin - is what happens to sins NOT covered by the blood of the lamb in the temple.

The guilt that is placed upon the scapegoat is the guilt that returns to the wicked who have CLAIMED salvation but are in fact among those in Matt 7 -- merely self deceived - who must then pay their own debt of sin in a "nonsubtitutionary" way -- "not a sin offering" for others. And the books are settled on "all sins" -- the debt for "ALL sin" is resolved whether it is for the sins of the saints (debt paid in full by the application of the atoning the blood of Christ shed once for all) or the sins of the wicked (for which there is no sin offering applied to their account to cover their debt but rather the wicked must pay their own debt of sin).

That is why the Scapegoat is never said to be a sin offering and that is why Christ is never said to be "our scapegoat" in all of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

Your explanation is not unfamiliar to me.

Let's see these verses:

Lev 16:10
But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Lev 16:21-22

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness

( from www.crosswalk.com)

Does the Satan carry our sins ?

Do we confess our sins to the Satan and he carries our sins?

It seems that there is no room for the Satan to get involved in this Atonement.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob

Since most of my bible study has been with SDA's, I hold to many of their belief systems such as honoring the 7th day as the Sabbath though I have yet to see my reasoning brought up.

So you accept a literal creation week not evolutionism. That is good to hear as well.

What about a literal 1000 years and premillennial second coming?

Do you still hold to that as well?

(These are all topics we discuss and debate on this section of the board so it is good to get an understanding of your views on these subjects of interest here.)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I would rather focus on the Redemption Once for ALL, instead of talking about the OSAS issues which often involves Predestination or Free Will etc.
Jesus's Blood has redeemed us Once for ALL

If you check those subject threads you will find that they focus on the "warning texts" of both NT and OT and ask whether we should pay attention to them or not.

If interested in the topic - please feel free to add your perspective on those threads that discuss OSAS - since there is a lot of material on that subject posted there.

Your explanation is not unfamiliar to me.

Let's see these verses:

Lev 16:10
But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Lev 16:21-22

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness

( from www.crosswalk.com)

Does the Satan carry our sins ?

Do we confess our sins to the Satan and he carries our sins?

It seems that there is no room for the Satan to get involved in this Atonement.

#1. No one confesses their sins to the Scapegoat.
#2. The Scapegoat is never called a "burnt offering" OR "a sin offering" once the Lord's Goat has been identified.
#3. Heb 9 makes it clear "without the shedding of blood - no forgivness of sins" the blood of the scapegoat is not shed.
#4. In the case of the Lord's Goat - which is the only one called "THE sin offering" we see the same shedding of blood as in the case of the Passover lamb.

The wicked only pay for their own sins. And in so doing the entire process resolving the final disposition of sin is completed. All sin-debt owed no matter who owes the debt.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Joe]

So you accept a literal creation week not evolutionism. That is good to hear as well.

What about a literal 1000 years and premillennial second coming?

Do you still hold to that as well?

(These are all topics we discuss and debate on this section of the board so it is good to get an understanding of your views on these subjects of interest here.)

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob

Thanks for your reply. I think it's best to ease into these topics as they arrive on the threads. It also allows me more control of what discussions I want to participate in depending upon my level of knowledge.
But the answer is yes to both questions.

Talk to you soon!

Joe

 

[Eliyahu]

If you check those subject threads you will find that they focus on the "warning texts" of both NT and OT and ask whether we should pay attention to them or not.

If interested in the topic - please feel free to add your perspective on those threads that discuss OSAS - since there is a lot of material on that subject posted there.

Sorry, not at the moment. I seems that the debate is not desired by God at this time.
But it there is another occasion, I may be there.

#1. No one confesses their sins to the Scapegoat.

Lev 16
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

#2. The Scapegoat is never called a "burnt offering" OR "a sin offering" once the Lord's Goat has been identified.

No, because it wasn not killed.

#3. Heb 9 makes it clear "without the shedding of blood - no forgivness of sins" the blood of the scapegoat is not shed.

Yes, but in this case it is another way to show that Jesus carried our sins.
Scapegoat didn't have to bleed as it was done by Lord's Goat.

#4. In the case of the Lord's Goat - which is the only one called "THE sin offering" we see the same shedding of blood as in the case of the Passover lamb.

The wicked only pay for their own sins. And in so doing the entire process resolving the final disposition of sin is completed. All sin-debt owed no matter who owes the debt.

in Christ,

Bob

Jesus is not only Sin Offering, but also, Shalom(Peace) Offering, Tresspass Offering, Meat Offering ( which doesn't have the Blood) as well.

 

[BobRyan]

None of those offerings occur in the Lev 16 Day of Atonement.

I don't see how a meat offering does not involve the explicit ritual death of the animal nor have I seen it ever referenced as "Christ is our meat offering".

Perhaps you can show where Christ is ever said to be one of those offerings.

Quote:
#3. Heb 9 makes it clear "without the shedding of blood - no forgivness of sins" the blood of the scapegoat is not shed.

Eliyahu
Yes, but in this case it is another way to show that Jesus carried our sins.
Scapegoat didn't have to bleed as it was done by Lord's Goat.

I agree with you - that the Lord's Goat IS "The Sin Offering" and the Scapegoat does not bleed - nor provide substitutionary atonement (taking our place) in payment for sin -- for only in the blood is there forgiveness "For the life is in the blood" as Lev 17 points out.

There is no forgiveness in something that is not "a sin offering" -- that is not it's purpose.

This is fitting since the wicked are not forgiven.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
#1. No one confesses their sins to the Scapegoat.

Lev 16
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.



No individuals bring their sins and confess in Lev 16 because this ceremonial event deals with all sins ALREADY committed during the year.


The blood of the Lamb covers the sins of those forgiven -- the ones in the camp that are not forgiven have their sins removed via the scapegoat symbolizing the wicked paying for their own sins. These are the ones like those in Matt 7 who "say Lord Lord" and who have brought sin and the claim of the blood of the Lamb into the sanctuary during the year - but like the ones in Matt 7 they are not in fact saved - not forgiven.


This is why Christ is never said to be "our scapegoat" nor is Christ ever said to be "The Lord's scapegoat" in the OT or in the NT.


The reason is that the scapegoat is not a sin offering - it is not a burnt offering it only represents the wicked driven out to pay their own debt of sin.

Obviously one can not divide "in ceremony" between the wicked and the saved amont the camp of Israel - and obviously not everyone in the camp is saved - nor is everyone lost.

So the ceremony simply accounts for both kinds of sin.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

As for the Meat Offering, it shows the sinless personality of Jesus Christ as we read the followings.

I believe that the Meat Offering was offered along with other Sacrifices, or it was based on the Sacrifice of the Priests which require the Blood. Otherwise, it may contradicts what is taught in Heb 9:22.

Let's see what is taught about Meat Offering.

Lev 5:

11 But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering. 12 Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, even a memorial thereof, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: it is a sin offering. 13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.

Lev 6

14 And this is the law of the meat offering: the sons of Aaron shall offer it before the LORD, before the altar. 15 And he shall take of it his handful, of the flour of the meat offering, and of the oil thereof, and all the frankincense which is upon the meat offering, and shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the LORD.

20 This is the offering of Aaron and of his sons, which they shall offer unto the LORD in the day when he is anointed; the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a meat offering perpetual, half of it in the morning, and half thereof at night. 21 In a pan it shall be made with oil; and when it is baken, thou shalt bring it in: and the baken pieces of the meat offering shalt thou offer for a sweet savour unto the LORD. 22 And the priest of his sons that is anointed in his stead shall offer it: it is a statute for ever unto the LORD; it shall be wholly burnt. 23 For every meat offering for the priest shall be wholly burnt: it shall not be eaten

However, we may find closer example here in Lev 14:

Lev 14
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest: 3 And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper; 4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: 5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water: 6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water: 7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.



Do you think the second bird is like Satan?

doesn't it witness the death of the first bird and proclaim what was done by the first bird?

Does Satan witness what Jesus has done at the Cross?


We must understand LORD's Goat and Scapegoat as combined. They didn't go separately.

 

[BobRyan]

Lev 5:

11 But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering. 12 Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, even a memorial thereof, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: it is a sin offering. 13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.

This is a "sin offering" not a "meat offering". And what you see here are the "failing cases" where the proper sin offering is not available.

The "sin offering" is already fully identified in Lev 16 as "the Lord's goat".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Lev 6

14 And this is the law of the meat offering: the sons of Aaron shall offer it before the LORD, before the altar. 15 And he shall take of it his handful, of the flour of the meat offering, and of the oil thereof, and all the frankincense which is upon the meat offering, and shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the LORD.

20 This is the offering of Aaron and of his sons, which they shall offer unto the LORD in the day when he is anointed; the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a meat offering perpetual, half of it in the morning, and half thereof at night. 21 In a pan it shall be made with oil; and when it is baken, thou shalt bring it in: and the baken pieces of the meat offering shalt thou offer for a sweet savour unto the LORD. 22 And the priest of his sons that is anointed in his stead shall offer it: it is a statute for ever unto the LORD; it shall be wholly burnt. 23 For every meat offering for the priest shall be wholly burnt: it shall not be eaten

This is another example of an offering (a non-animal offering in this case) offerred as a "burnt offering".

The Scapegoat in Lev 16 is not a "burnt offering" of any kind.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Lev 14
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest: 3 And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper; 4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop: 5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water: 6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water: 7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.



Do you think the second bird is like Satan?

No - the bird that is set free is not a sin offering of any kind. Nor is it sacrificed - nor is it "substitutionary". It appears to represent the one who is forgiven for it is washed in the blood.

Getting back to what scripture says about Christ - in 1Cor 5 we find that "Christ is our Passover" that has been "slain" we find that he is our "Atoning SACRIFICE" in 1John 2:2 --

But never "our scapegoat" never our "turtledove set free" - none of those examples point to Christ,

Animals that were sacrificed DO point to Christ's sacrifice in our place - a substitutionary atoning sacrifice "for us" - and in that blood of that sacrifice "Forgiveness of sins" through Christ alone.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

We must understand LORD's Goat and Scapegoat as combined. They didn't go separately.

Actually that is not the case in Lev 16 for we see that the "Lord's Goat" and the "scapegoat" become so "disinct" so separated that at one point the term "sin offeirng" is unnambigous in that it does NOT point to the "Scapegoat" but "to the Lord's goat ALONE".

See it in vs 15-16


15 ""Then he shall [b]slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people[/b], and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull[/b], and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
16 "" He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities.[/b]