Cults, Christian Faith and Practice

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: 15 ""Then he shall [b]slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people

HP: How does this verse prove your point? What keeps the sin offering ‘in total’ from being comprised of both goats, and this verse is simply addressing what happens to one of them, namely, the goat mentioned here the one which is 'offered for the people?'

 

[BobRyan]

Because instead of saying "Slaughter the Lord's Goat" and considering that BOTH the Lord's Goat AND the scapegoat are together "THE Sin offering" the text says "Slaughter THE SIN OFFERING" as if the OTHER goat is NOT "the Sin offering".

The only way for this not to be ambiguous is IF one accepts that ONLY the Lord's Goat IS The sin offering!

That is significant.

But also when you look at the defintion for "Sin offering" in Leviticus you find that in ALL cases it is slain and in all cases burnt.

That means ONLY the Lord's goat qualifies.

It is no wonder then that neither OT nor NT calls Christ "our scapegoat" nor even "the Lord's scapegoat"

Furthermore - the text of Lev 16 is really pretty clear on this point.

8 ""Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat.
9 ""Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell, and make it a sin offering.

10 ""But the goat on which the lot for the [b]scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD[/b], to make atonement upon it, to send it [b]into the wilderness as the scapegoat.[/b]

 

[Eliyahu]

Actually that is not the case in Lev 16 for we see that the "Lord's Goat" and the "scapegoat" become so "disinct" so separated that at one point the term "sin offeirng" is unnambigous in that it does NOT point to the "Scapegoat" but "to the Lord's goat ALONE".

See it in vs 15-16


15 ""Then he shall [b]slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people[/b], and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull[/b], and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
16 "" He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities.[/b]

But please read this again.

Lev 16
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

1) Do we lay hands on the Satan or his agent to get the forgiveness?

2) Do we confess our sins to Satan and/or his agent?

3) Does Satan or his agent carry our sins?

4) Did JUdas Iscariot carry any of the unbelievers sins?

5) Do you agree that Jesus carried all the sins of the World, including the unbelievers' such as Hitler and Stalin?
They are damned to go to the hell, not because Jesus didn't redeem their sins, but because they didn't accept such truth, do you agree?

6) Can you accept the Scapegoat as the Sin carrier only if it was killed?

Then you are claiming the double slaughter of the goats, of both LORD's Goat, and Scapegoat.

7) Do you know why Moses couldn't enter Canaan?
It was because he struck the Rock twice !
The first strike was the Crucifixion of Jesus, then Moses was supposed to SPEAK, not hitting ! but he struck it. ( NUmbers 20:

Killing the LORD's Goat was enough, and enough, Once for ALL !

Sadly, RCC repeat the striking the Rock every week, disbelieving Jesus' Crucifixion effective Once for ALL, at the Mass, repeating the Scarifice.

Now your system of belief is the same as that of RCC, sadly.
Therefore I kindly remind you that your belief is rather incomplete with the belief of imperfect sacrifice by Jesus. You may feel that there is something left behind to be done by yourself after Jesus cried " It is finished"

I must tell you this, Jesus has done everything for you and for me.
Only the problems occur when we try to do for ourselves, forgetting and disbelieving about the complete accomplishment by Jesus.

Jesus has done everything for you, take the rest in Jesus eternally, which is the ETERNAL SABBATH.

 

[BobRyan]

But please read this again.

Lev 16
21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

1) Do we lay hands on the Satan or his agent to get the forgiveness?

2) Do we confess our sins to Satan and/or his agent?

3) Does Satan or his agent carry our sins?

No. The scapegoat is not a "sin offeirng"

"Without the shedding of blood NO forgiveness of sins" Heb 9.

Only in the SIN offering is there "an offering for sin" for the blood is what makes atonement.

Lev 17
11'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.'

5) Do you agree that Jesus carried all the sins of the World, including the unbelievers' such as Hitler and Stalin?

Yes - he died for all sins for all mankind. But this is an "atonement model" not a "grocery store model".

In other words instead of "God getting paid" it is "God who suffers and dies". If anything - God is OWED more for the damage and insult done to him.

God provides the substitutionary atoning sacrifice for sin - and those who reject it - as we see in Matt 18 with "forgivenes revoked" must pay the FULL debt owed.

This is what the scapegoat shows --

NO forgiveness apart from the blood.

No animal "not sacrificed" provides forgiveness of sins.

I am going to have to go with the Bible on this one - only the Lord's Goat is "THE sin offering".

6) Can you accept the Scapegoat as the Sin carrier only if it was killed?

Then you are claiming the double slaughter of the goats, of both LORD's Goat, and Scapegoat.

BOTH the Bull AND the Lord's goat are SIN offeringS in Lev 16 - BOTH are burnt offerings.

But the scapegoat is neither.

7) Do you know why Moses couldn't enter Canaan?
It was because he struck the Rock twice !
The first strike was the Crucifixion of Jesus, then Moses was supposed to SPEAK, not hitting ! but he struck it. ( NUmbers 20:

I actually agree with that.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

So, you want the killing of goats twice, killing LORD's Goat and killing another goat-Scapegoat again, as Moses struck the rock twice.

Killing goats twice may not be enough if you are not satisfied with once - killing LORD's Goat.
Scapegoat was not presented alone, it always went along with LORD's Goat.

 

[BobRyan]

No I am not asking that the scapegoat turn into the Lord's goat or that it turn into a burnt offering or even that it turn into a sin offering. I am happy to have it "presented ALIVE before the LORD" as something that is NOT a sin offering at all! It represents the sins of those who are not forgiven. Who like those in Matt 7 CLAIM to be saved - and have had the blood of their offerings taken into the sanctuary all during the year - but they are not saved.

The Bull IS a sin offering - a burnt offering in Lev 16.

AND The Lord's goat IS a sin offering - a burnt offering in Lev 16.

AND in Heb 10 we see the reference "To the Blood of bulls and goats" and the fact that while they were sybmolically to "take away sin" they could not actually do what the REAL blood of Christ "really does". Only the blood of Christ takes away sin - these other blood sacrifices merely serve as symbols of that fact.

But in ALL cases the animals "presented ALIVE before the Lord" that do not have their blood shed - are not "sin offerings" are not "burnt offerings".

I realize we may differ here - but this is a biblicaly principle that I am convinced is true. I claim the model God gives in Lev 16 accounts for ALL sin - not just the sins forgiven and covered by the LORD's goat and covered by the Bull - burnt offering.

Christ IS called "our High Priest" and we see that modeled for us in Lev 16

Christ IS called our "passover" (1Cor 5) an IS called our "Atoning Sacrifice" 1John 2:2 as a sin offering "An offering for SIN".

Christ is NEVER called "our scapegoat". Christ is Never called "the Lord's scapegoat" -- no not once in all of scripture.

Others do not want to allow the sanctuary atonement model to include a scapegoat aspect that show the final dispostion of ALL sin - even unforgiven sin - instead they want to find a way for Christ to be the scapegoat for humanity or for the Lord though we never see that stated even once in scripture.

That is simply a difference between us in our understanding of this chapter and what symbols can be forced to apply given the weight of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

We must note that the word " Scapegoat" was invented by William Tyndale as he invented new words like " brokenhearted, Passover, Let there be light, etc" and KJV accpeted those words in thousands of verses.

Now the issue is focussed on LORD's Goat and Scapetgoat.

I don't think they needed the sacrifices for ALL the sins twice. Otherwise, the previous sacrifice must have been default.

The Scapegoat was sent out after the LORD's Goat was killed, not before the killing.

The LORD's Goat was killed as a sin offering.
But the Scapegoat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabitied ( Lev 16:22) and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

This situation is very similar to this:

1) Jesus was killed at the Cross, bearing all the sins of ours upon his shoulder.

2) Then whenever we commit sins, we confess our daily sins to God, then God forgives us for our daily sins based on what Jesus did at the Cross, based on the Blood shed at the Cross. God reminds us that even such daily sins were included in the forgiveness at the Cross.

Therefore we cannot separate between LORD's Goat and Scapegoat, as the Scapegoat witness what the LORD's Goat did by dying.

 

[BobRyan]

We must note that the word " Scapegoat" was invented by William Tyndale as he invented new words like " brokenhearted, Passover, Let there be light, etc" and KJV accpeted those words in thousands of verses.

Ok "Azazel" then -- but that doesn't solve the problem.

Christ is never said to be the Lord's "Azazel" or "our Azazel".

Scapegoat is just a handy translation.

Now the issue is focussed on LORD's Goat and Scapetgoat.

I don't think they needed the sacrifices for ALL the sins twice. Otherwise, the previous sacrifice must have been default.

Sacrificed BOTH the Bull AND the Lord's goat.

But it is KEY that the sins being dealt with on the Day of Atonement are in fact the sin ALREADY dealt with ALL year long via individual sin-offering - blood sacrifices.

So not only do we have TWO sacrifices (sin offerings) on THE Lev 16 day of atonement but we ALSO have the fact that THESE are as followup to the DAILY - INDIVIDUAL sins being confessed and sin offerings being brought into the temple -- that happened all year long.

In addition to those TWO contexts for the "sin offering sacrifice" (the daily which builds the accumulated debt of sin -- and the once-a-year that accomplishes final settlement for all the sin offerings accumulated for the entire year) we ALSO have the PASSOVER lamb slain.

It is wayyy to late to argue that you only want one sin offering in the Biblical model. We have them all year along AND we have TWO (Bull and Goat) on the Lev 16 day of atonement.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Scapegoat was sent out after the LORD's Goat was killed, not before the killing.

The LORD's Goat was killed as a sin offering.

True. The TWO sin offerings on the Day of Atonement are the Bull AND the Lord's goat.

But the Scapegoat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabitied ( Lev 16:22) and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

This situation is very similar to this:

1) Jesus was killed at the Cross, bearing all the sins of ours upon his shoulder.

I see - the problem is that ALL year long the sins were confessed over the individual sin offerings and then each one slain and burned. Then on the day of Atonement the Lord's goat is slain and atones for ALL the impurities - ALL the sins of Israel for the entire year. The accumulation of guilt dealt with "individually" all during the year with individual sin offerings.


14 ""Moreover, he shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; also in front of the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.

15 ""Then he shall [b]slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people[/b], and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull[/b], and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
16 "" He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities.[/b]
17 ""When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel.

Sin offerings where the sins were individually confessed over the sin offering and then it was slain.

Just as you point to in the case of Christ.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The normal practice all year long was to lay hands on the head of the sin offering - confess the sin and then the sin offering was slain.

Thus the accumulated guilt for the entire year - all the sins of all the people is placed in the sanctuary.

Then the Lord's Goat is slain to deal with ALL the sins of all the people for the entire year - and even to make atonement for the sanctuary itself -- both the people AND the sanctuary are "clean" once this is done.

ALL sin of ALL types has been resolved.

Some covered by the blood of the lamb -- and some taken back out and laid upon a "NOT sin offerring" where the solution for that sin is "NOT" a sin offering it is a curse - the one that rests upon the wicked in the lake of fire.

The symbol is imperfect since we obviously know that not ALL were saved -- there were among the camp of Israel - some who were born-again - saved - children of God... and others who although they CLAIMED the blood of the lamb AND had made the sin offering claims during the year - yet they were lost. Their sins would not be covered by the sin offering that they claimed at the time of the daily offense NOR would the Lord's Goat confirm that claim.

Rather they would like those in Matt 7 and like the man in Matt 18 -- see the full guilt that they "thought" was to be paid for by Christ - return to themselves.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Why does God say this?


Lev 16
5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.

2 goats were offered as a Sin Offering !

The Bullock was offered only for himself and for his family.

6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house


In case of Jesus, He didn't have to do that, because He was not a sinner.

He offered Himself.

 

[BobRyan]

In vs 5 we have two perfect goats - and NONE has been selected as the scapegoat. BOTH are considered "The sin offering" until one is selected.

But once the scapegoat IS identified -- then The LORD's goat can NOW be perfectly distinguished FROM the scapegoat just by saying "THE SIN offering" -- for the scapegoat has been selected and determined that it will not die - it will not be a burnt offering - it will not participate as "THE sin offering" from that point on.

Instead of referring to the goat that is not the scapegoat as "The Lord's Goat" vs 15 is now free to simply say "THE sin offering" after the lots were cast and the Lord's Goat fully identified.


15 ""Then he shall [b]slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people[/b], and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull[/b], and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
16 "" He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities.[/b]

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

In vs 5 we have two perfect goats - and NONE has been selected as the scapegoat. BOTH are considered "The sin offering" until one is selected.

But once the scapegoat IS identified -- then The LORD's goat can NOW be perfectly distinguished FROM the scapegoat just by saying "THE SIN offering" -- for the scapegoat has been selected and determined that it will not die - it will not be a burnt offering - it will not participate as "THE sin offering" from that point on.

Instead of referring to the goat that is not the scapegoat as "The Lord's Goat" vs 15 is now free to simply say "THE sin offering" after the lots were cast and the Lord's Goat fully identified.


15 ""Then he shall [b]slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people[/b], and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull[/b], and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
16 "" He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities.[/b]

in Christ,

Bob

So, the Mercy Seat was sprinkled with the Blood twice on the 10th day of 7th month, on Yom Kipur.

Once it was the blood of a bullock which was the redemption for the Aaran and his family.

Then the Blood of the LORD's Goat was offered.

Thereafter, the Scapeogat was brought and the Highpriest prayed confessing sins, laying down the hands on the head of the goat.
Then the Scapegoat carried the sins of Israel.

Didn't Jesus carry the sins of ours?

How come the Scapegoat did the same thing?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: 15 ""Then he shall [b]slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people

HP: Why do you insist on emphasizing the word ‘the’ or ‘the sin offering’ when there is no reason I can see ‘in the text’ that would not indicate that both goats were in fact part of one offering. You try and make ‘the sin offering’ specific to the goat that was slain, but the text simply does not indicate that at all. Either goat could be said to be ‘the’ specfic goat of the offering, just addressing different aspects of one completed offering.

One has to realize that this OT type and shadow is just that, a type and shadow, not the offering for sin that Christ actually made. Christ indeed offered Himself for all sin, yet only some are actually forgiven. Both goats can reasonably be shown to be a type of Christ but from different perspectives. Certainly there is no reason to force the verse into stating something that it does not, i.e., that only the one goat actually killed and sacrificed is representative of the work of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

In Lev 16 it is very obvious that only one of the goats is killed.

It is also very obvious that the one killed in "not" the scapegoat.

I just don't see any way to avoid that.

15 ""Then he shall [b]slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people[/b], and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull[/b], and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat.
16 "" He shall make atonement for the holy place, because of the impurities of the sons of Israel and because of their transgressions in regard to all their sins; and thus he shall do for the tent of meeting which abides with them in the midst of their impurities.[/b]

The other thing that is obvious is that using the term "The Sin Offering" as an unambiguous reference to the "Lord's Goat" -- the one actually killed -- is only possible if you admit that the goat that is to be "presented ALIVE before the Lord" instead of killed -- is NOT "The Sin Offering".

Again this point seems to be beyond any possible doubt.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

One has to realize that this OT type and shadow is just that, a type and shadow, not the offering for sin that Christ actually made. Christ indeed offered Himself for all sin,

True - the Biblical text is just God describing the plan of salvation to us - and in this case - teaching mankind about the fact that Atonement includes both the work of Christ as High Priest AND the role of Christ as our "Atoning Sacrifice" 1John 2:2

So "in scripture" Christ IS called our "High Priest" and Christ "IS called" the "Lamb of God" and the one whose blood covers our sin -- never is He called "our scapegoat". No not even once.

. Both goats can reasonably be shown to be a type of Christ

If by "shown to be a type of Christ" you mean to say that the Bible actually tells us "Christ is our scapegoat" just as it REALLY tells us "Christ is the Lamb of God" the "Lamb slain" and "The Atoning Sacrifice" -- then please provide the "Christ our scapegoat" text.

Otherwise the only "Can be shown" defintion you have left is perhaps good story telling - but is not actualy scripture.

The thing that IS stated as a hard and fast rule in Leviticus is that all sin offerings are killed - are burnt offerings.

The thing stated in Heb 9 explicitly is that the only thing that provides forgiveness is the shedding of blood.

The one thing stated explicitly in Lev 17 is that it is the blood that "makes atonement" because the life is in the blood.

That we see clearly as the hard and fast rules of scripture on that point.

Those who want to think of Christ as their scapegoat can go ahead - but I don't join them in doing that since I find no scriptural support for it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So, the Mercy Seat was sprinkled with the Blood twice on the 10th day of 7th month, on Yom Kipur.

Once it was the blood of a bullock which was the redemption for the Aaran and his family.

That is true.

Then the Blood of the LORD's Goat was offered.

True - but all this was done in reference to sins already committed during the year, already brought to the temple - already brought with confession upon the head of the sin offering - already having a sin offering the covered them. This is the end-of-year ceremony.

Notice that in the normal case the sins are FIRST confessed over the sin offering and THEN the sin offering is slain. In the Case of Christ he took on our sins BEFORE his death while in Gethsemane and all through the ordeal until finally He died -- giving up His life an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

But once paid -- no "additional sins" were added to Christ for him to carry. It is done.

Didn't Jesus carry the sins of ours?

BEFORE Jesus died - he had all the sins of all mankind placed on him and while living - He sufferred the penalty for those sins - and then died.

After He died -- he did not have those sins - nor did anyone confess sins over him for him to carry after he died.

NOR does anyone today add sins to christ for him to carry.

The symbol in Lev 16 is to show us how the sins already confessed and already brought to the temple are resolved.

Some get resolved in the form of the blood applied.

Some get resolved as in the case of Matt 7 and Matt 18 -- the sins are returned to those who have claimed forgiveness for they in fact did not accept the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

True - but all this was done in reference to sins already committed during the year, already brought to the temple - already brought with confession upon the head of the sin offering - already having a sin offering the covered them. This is the end-of-year ceremony.

Notice that in the normal case the sins are FIRST confessed over the sin offering and THEN the sin offering is slain. In the Case of Christ he took on our sins BEFORE his death while in Gethsemane and all through the ordeal until finally He died -- giving up His life an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

But once paid -- no "additional sins" were added to Christ for him to carry. It is done.



BEFORE Jesus died - he had all the sins of all mankind placed on him and while living - He sufferred the penalty for those sins - and then died.

After He died -- he did not have those sins - nor did anyone confess sins over him for him to carry after he died.

NOR does anyone today add sins to christ for him to carry.

The symbol in Lev 16 is to show us how the sins already confessed and already brought to the temple are resolved.

Some get resolved in the form of the blood applied.

Some get resolved as in the case of Matt 7 and Matt 18 -- the sins are returned to those who have claimed forgiveness for they in fact did not accept the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

Some errors are here again:

There is no additional sins for Jesus to carry.
But we do confess our sins every day as we read 1 John 1:9.
And when God forgive us, He remembers what Jesus did at the Cross.
This seems to be similar to the confession to the Scapegoat, then God forgave Israelites based on what the LORD's Goat did ( was killed).

Read the v 21-22 again:

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.


Satan doesn't carry any of our sins. He has no capacity like that. If Satan can carry our iniquitiy, why did God let His only begotten Son, Jesus be killed?

As for Jesus, this interpretation may be simpler.

Jesus had 3 offices to fulfill. Prophet, Priest, King.

He was a Prophet while He was on earth, preaching the Gospel.
He healed the illness and forgave the sins of the people based on what He was going to do at the Cross. In that sense, they were forgiven on Credit.( on believing). Our generation are forgiven based on Prepaid Atonement.

When He was arrested, He went on His way to fullfil the Office of High Priest after the Melchizedek He offered the perfect sacrifice by offering His own body at the Cross.

Now only one Office is left to be accomplished, i.e. Kingship.

He will come again to rule upon the throne of King David. Until then we are supposed to remember Him by the Lord's Supper ( 1 Cor 11: 26)

We should confess our daily sins to God, then He forgive us by reminding us that even that daily sins were included in the forgiveness at the Cross.
Likewise, LORD had forgiven the sins confessed unto the Scapegoat by the High Priest based on the Blood and Death of the LORD's Goat.

Could you find anywhere that the fake Christians should confess the sins to the Satan?

 

[BobRyan]

Some errors are here again:

There is no additional sins for Jesus to carry.
But we do confess our sins every day as we read 1 John 1:9.
And when God forgive us, He remembers what Jesus did at the Cross.
This seems to be similar to the confession to the Scapegoat, then God forgave Israelites based on what the LORD's Goat did ( was killed).

Actually this is covered in Heb 4-8 talking about Christ's role for us as our high priest and the fact that we find forgiveness through is role as our high priest interceding for us -- 1John 2:1 states this high priestly advocate role for us in cases of sins committed after we come to Christ.

That is the role of the High Priest in Lev 16 and Christ IS said to fulfill it in the NT.

Never does the NT say that a scapegoat is needed for us when we confess our sins.

In the case of Christ on the cross - all sins were placed ON Christ and then he suffered for them and died for them.

JUST as we see with the sin offerings brought in day by day.

We have no example in Christ where FIRST he suffers and dies THEN sins are placed ON him and He is sent out again to be cursed.

Rather Heb 9 states that this was done ONCE and Christ no longer bears sins after His Atoning Sacrifice.

Conversly the issue with the scapegoat IS correct since it is AFTER the death of Christ that we see the lake of fire event where the wicked suffer for ALL of their sins.

Notice in Lev 16 what happens AFTER "The Sin offering" is sacrificed and atonement made for the sanctuary AND the people

Read the v 21-22 again:

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

That is a good example of the wicked sent out to pay their own debt of sin and not covered by the blood of the lamb.

Satan doesn't carry any of our sins. He has no capacity like that.

True - he can only pay for his own debt of sin which INCLUDES the sin of tempting the saints to commit each one of THEIR sins.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Never does the NT say that a scapegoat is needed for us when we confess our sins.

No, because scapegoat function was already included in the resurrection and post-Crucifixion ministry of Jesus Christ.

In the case of Christ on the cross - all sins were placed ON Christ and then he suffered for them and died for them.

JUST as we see with the sin offerings brought in day by day.

Yes, even in the case of LORD's Goat.

We have no example in Christ where FIRST he suffers and dies THEN sins are placed ON him and He is sent out again to be cursed.

Sins placed on the Scapegoat was not different from what was laid upon the RD' s Goat. It was just the remembrance of what was done to LORD's Goat

Rather Heb 9 states that this was done ONCE and Christ no longer bears sins after His Atoning Sacrifice.

NO longer bearing but confirmation of what was done already.

Conversly the issue with the scapegoat IS correct since it is AFTER the death of Christ that we see the lake of fire event where the wicked suffer for ALL of their sins.

Notice in Lev 16 what happens AFTER "The Sin offering" is sacrificed and atonement made for the sanctuary AND the people

Yes, after the Cross, we have to Goat.

That is a good example of the wicked sent out to pay their own debt of sin and not covered by the blood of the lamb.

The problem with the wicked was that they didn't believe the effect of the LORD's Goat, not because any sins were left unforgiven.

True - he can only pay for his own debt of sin which INCLUDES the sin of tempting the saints to commit each one of THEIR sins.

in Christ,

Bob

Aaron was confessing all the Iniquities of children of Israel unto the Scapegoat. Read Lev 16:21-22