Cults, Christian Faith and Practice

[Eliyahu]

In Galatians Paul says "you have been severed from Christ" he also says "you have fallen from Grace".

Question - does the gospel you believe in proclaim salvation apart from Christ and grace? If so - then OSAS is for you.

in Christ,

Bob

Fallen from Grace doesn't mean the Loss of Salvation.

In such case, even though the person was saved, the spirit in him would be pressed and quenched by a rock. The rock of Legalism will press the spirit so that the Holy Spirit cannot work. In that case he cannot bear the fruits. However, he will go to the heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

Interesting -- but what actual Bible text do you have for

"SAVED though SEVERED from Christ"?.

CAN one STILL be saved -- APART from Christ?

Or "SAVED though FALLEN from Grace"?

CAN one still be saved WITHOUT Grace?

My Bible says "no".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Interesting -- but what actual Bible text do you have for

"SAVED though SEVERED from Christ"?.

CAN one STILL be saved -- APART from Christ?

Or "SAVED though FALLEN from Grace"?

CAN one still be saved WITHOUT Grace?

My Bible says "no".

in Christ,

Bob

It is your distortion, Sir.

Saved by Grace.
But one can have the spirit quenched by his own efforts and stubbornness while he can still maintain the salvation given by the Grace.

In my experience, I have lived my own stubborn life for a long time since I was born again, while I have never doubted my salvation.

Born again believers can commit sins, then they are fallen from the grace whenever they commit sins. It doesn't mean that they lose the salvation whenever they commit sins.

In your theology, you are losing the salvation everytime whenever you commit sins, then you are saved again and again whenever you repent.
So, the holy spirit of your theology is very much hanky-panky !

My God, the Holy Spirit dwells in me and He is very much solid.

However, if I insist on my own way and on my own thinking, then the Holy Spirit cannot work and He is quiet. If it occurs for a long time, He is quenched. In that case, he is fallen from the Grace. He cannot enjoy what God has granted. However, if he repent and surrender himself to the Holy Spirit, then the Spirit revives in him and he can recover the grace.
What he recovers is not the salvation, but the fellowship with God.
And he finds the Grace again.


Do not quench the Spirit ( 1 Thess 5:19) This doesn't mean that he will lose the salvation, nor is the Spirit killed by any human.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: Born again believers can commit sins, then they are fallen from the grace whenever they commit sins. It doesn't mean that they lose the salvation whenever they commit sins.

HP: How can you fall from something you never have departed from? Do you have a Scriptural passage or example that would help substantiate your belief? You don’t suppose that you might be founding your notion upon the unfounded presupposition of OSAS do you?

 

[Eliyahu]

HP: How can you fall from something you never have departed from? Do you have a Scriptural passage or example that would help substantiate your belief? You don’t suppose that you might be founding your notion upon the unfounded presupposition of OSAS do you?

I understand that you raised the question about such expression which is rather new.

Basically, we have to separate 2 things, Grace and Salvation.

When we are saved, we have the joy and fellowship with God thru Jesus and His Blood. We enjoy the grace as well.
When we commit sins, God who cannot see the sins turns away his sight from us, and we lose the fellowship with Him.

We don't depart from the Salvation, but can be fallen from the Grace.

Let's see the case:

Rev 2:
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

I don't think Church of Ephesus lost the salvation. If they did, Jesus would have said, you have lost the Salvation, and therefore you have to recover the salvation, you have to be born again, once again.

Likewise, when Paul wrote to Galatians, we can find nowhere that he was asking Galatians to born again, once again because they are fallen from the Grace. What Paul asked Galatians was to return to the Faith following the Holy Spirit.

Galatians were saved, and they still maintained the Salvation despite their legalism, but they were fallen from the Grace, and lost the fellowship with God.

Fallen from the Grace doesn't mean the Loss of Salvation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

HP: How can you fall from something you never have departed from? Do you have a Scriptural passage or example that would help substantiate your belief? You don’t suppose that you might be founding your notion upon the unfounded presupposition of OSAS do you?

Eliyahu: Basically, we have to separate 2 things, Grace and Salvation.
When we are saved, we have the joy and fellowship with God thru Jesus and His Blood. We enjoy the grace as well.
When we commit sins, God who cannot see the sins turns away his sight from us, and we lose the fellowship with Him.

We don't depart from the Salvation, but can be fallen from the Grace.

HP: You have not offered any evidence so far that grace and salvation are separate things, nor have you supported the notion that when you sin you do not or cannot depart from salvation or that we simply lose fellowship with Him. Where is your evidence?

Eliyahu: Let's see the case:

Rev 2:
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

I don't think Church of Ephesus lost the salvation. If they did, Jesus would have said, you have lost the Salvation, and therefore you have to recover the salvation, you have to be born again, once again.

HP: Did you happen to read the portion of the text you typed that commanded them to repent and to ‘do their first works over?’ What do you think that implies, and what exactly are those first works that must be accomplished without which they will have their candlestick removed? Sounds an awfully lot like getting saved again to me, or perishing.

Eliyahu: Likewise, when Paul wrote to Galatians, we can find nowhere that he was asking Galatians to born again, once again because they are fallen from the Grace. What Paul asked Galatians was to return to the Faith following the Holy Spirit.

HP: And how do you suppose they are to return? What must they do to return? Does repentance ring any bells? What must one do in order to be saved the first time? Did not Jesus command all me everywhere to repent, and say that apart from repentance all likewise shall perish? Are you to tell me that if one is fallen from grace and in need of repentance, that they will not perish if they refuse to repent? Does the word ‘all’ have any significance? It certainly does to me. What matters where a man was yesterday if in fact he refuses to do what God commands him to do today, without which God states he shall ‘perish?’

Eliyahu: Galatians were saved, and they still maintained the Salvation despite their legalism, but they were fallen from the Grace, and lost the fellowship with God.

HP: Unless they repented and turned as they were commanded, they too perished, just as Scripture states all will that refuse to turn and repent.

Eliyahu: Fallen from the Grace doesn't mean the Loss of Salvation.

HP: Seriously, you have not provided one shred of evidence that your conclusions are based upon the evidence found in the Word of God. Making a statement, or convincing yourself that you are correct, is not evidence that you are correct. From what I see is that you simply overlook any evidence that flies in the face of your conclusions, such as ‘do your first works over lest’ and ‘all likewise shall perish.’

 

[BobRyan]

Likewise, when Paul wrote to Galatians, we can find nowhere that he was asking Galatians to born again, once again because they are fallen from the Grace. What Paul asked Galatians was to return to the Faith following the Holy Spirit.

Galatians were saved, and they still maintained the Salvation despite their legalism, but they were fallen from the Grace, and lost the fellowship with God.

Fallen from the Grace doesn't mean the Loss of Salvation.

IF you can find any text of scripture that shows that the Gospel message teaches "salvation apart from Christ and apart from Grace" THEN you are right one could REMAIN saved even after being SEVERED from Christ and falling from Grace.

So far no one has offerred up such a text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

IF you can find any text of scripture that shows that the Gospel message teaches "salvation apart from Christ and apart from Grace" THEN you are right one could REMAIN saved even after being SEVERED from Christ and falling from Grace.

So far no one has offerred up such a text.

in Christ,

Bob

There is no salvation apart from Christ. But Fallen from the Grace doesn't mean the Loss of Salvation. Your view is a huge misunderstanding.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

κατηργθητε doesn't mean the fallen, but it means becomes useless.
I am not satisified with KJV. The better translation should be " You become useless to Christ, who are justified in the Law, you are fallen from the Grace. εξεπεσετε means fallen. Fallen applies to Grace only.

If they were severed from Christ and lost the Salvation, why didn't Paul say to them " You lost the Salvation, you are not the Christian believers any more. If you want to become Christians again, you must repent and be born again by Holy Spirit, then you must be baptized again, would you do that?" Did Paul say so?

Or, "YOu guys lost the salvation, and therefore I don't want to talk to the non-Christians like you. Once you lose the Salvation, you can never have another chance to become a Christian" Full stop.

How could he say this to the people who are fallen from the Grace?

Gal 5:
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law

If they are fallen from Christ, how could they walk in the Spirit?

Why does Paul ask them to return to the Spirit?

How can Paul ask this?

Gal 5
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another

Do you see? If you stick to the Legalism, you are fallen from the Grace.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

HP: How can you fall from something you never have departed from? Do you have a Scriptural passage or example that would help substantiate your belief? You don’t suppose that you might be founding your notion upon the unfounded presupposition of OSAS do you?


HP: You have not offered any evidence so far that grace and salvation are separate things, nor have you supported the notion that when you sin you do not or cannot depart from salvation or that we simply lose fellowship with Him. Where is your evidence?

I thought you believe in the irrevocable Salvation and OSAS and therefore I thought I didn't need to explain you very much. If you don't I can help you. There are many verses which support the OSAS as you know like John 6:37, and even the fornicator in 1 Cor 5:5 didn't lose the salvation even though he was delivered to Satan.

HP: Did you happen to read the portion of the text you typed that commanded them to repent and to ‘do their first works over?’ What do you think that implies, and what exactly are those first works that must be accomplished without which they will have their candlestick removed? Sounds an awfully lot like getting saved again to me, or perishing.

If you are talking about the church of Ephesus in Re 2,
if they lost the Salvation, they have to be born again, again, then be baptized again. I have seen no one in the Bible did so.

HP: And how do you suppose they are to return? What must they do to return?

Nothing but the repentance and then return to the Spirit as you read Gal 5:16

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

Does repentance ring any bells? What must one do in order to be saved the first time?

Repent and believe in Jesus Christ and what He has done at the Cross.

Did not Jesus command all me everywhere to repent, and say that apart from repentance all likewise shall perish? Are you to tell me that if one is fallen from grace and in need of repentance, that they will not perish if they refuse to repent? Does the word ‘all’ have any significance? It certainly does to me. What matters where a man was yesterday if in fact he refuses to do what God commands him to do today, without which God states he shall ‘perish?’

AA) If anyone repent and return to the Holy Spirit after Salvation, there will be no problem with the salvation.

BB) If Galatians who believed in the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ refused to return to the Spirit sticking to the Legalism of Circumcision, they would have died in the sins of Legalism. But in this case there could be 2 categories: one group would have been this- They never denied that they were saved by the Blood and Death of Jesus though they insisted on keeping the Law after Salvation. They still maintained the Salvation in this case because they still believed they were saved by His Blood.

CC) Another group could have been this:
They were said to believe in the Blood and Death of Jesus in the beginning, but later on they denied the Blood and Death of Jesus redeemed them from all the sins and paid all the price for their sins. In this case I doubt that they believed in Jesus from the beginning. From the beginning, they were fake Christian and don't prove that the Salvation can be lost as they never believed and were never saved from the beginning. There were false believers in Galatian church as in Gal 2:4. Also John mentioned such people in 1 John 2:19.

HP: Unless they repented and turned as they were commanded, they too perished, just as Scripture states all will that refuse to turn and repent.

The only sin which can deprive the believers of the Salvation is the denial of the Blood of Jesus. If anyone can deny it after he or she believed it and thereby was saved, that person must have not believed it from the beginning, He or she was a fake Believer from the beginning. You can read such fake Believers in Galatian 2:4 and 1 John 2:19.

HP: Seriously, you have not provided one shred of evidence that your conclusions are based upon the evidence found in the Word of God. Making a statement, or convincing yourself that you are correct, is not evidence that you are correct. From what I see is that you simply overlook any evidence that flies in the face of your conclusions, such as ‘do your first works over lest’ and ‘all likewise shall perish.’

I think many things are self-explanatory and I provided you with enough verses from Galatians, Revelation. Please read John 6:37, John 10:27-30, 1 Cor 5:5, Romans 8:35, and the whole Bible tells us that we are saved by Faith, not by works.

Of course, if anyone says " I want to repeal my faith because I find most of my relatives are unbelievers and they are going to the hell, and therefore I want to spend the eternity in the Hell along with my relatives there and therefore I deny that Blood of Jesus redeemed me" then he or she may lose the salvation. Can anyone like that exist on the Earth?

Which sin do you think can deprive any Once-believer of the salvation if you notice the case of 1 Cor 5:5?

OSAS exists in the Intrinsic natures of Salvation which are Eternity, and given By Grace, not by Human Works.

Judas Iscariot was not a believer from the beginning, and therefore he didn't lose the Salvation. He never had it before.

The great believers like Spurgeon, Moody, Torrey, Harry Ironside believed the same.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no salvation apart from Christ. But Fallen from the Grace doesn't mean the Loss of Salvation.

Fine -- if the Gal 5 statements about "Fallen From Grace" being "SEVERED from Christ" still mean "SAVED and going to heaven" -- then all you have to do is show that from scripture.

Your view is a huge misunderstanding.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

κατηργθητε doesn't mean the fallen, but it means becomes useless.
I am not satisified with KJV. The better translation should be " You become useless to Christ, who are justified in the Law, you are fallen from the Grace. εξεπεσετε means fallen. Fallen applies to Grace only.

The Severed From Christ and "Fallen from Grace" translation is affirmed by a great many translators. If you are going to make your case on the argument that your translation is better - I am going to have to agree to differ with you.

(NASB) Gal 5:4
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

New King James Version (NKJV)

Gal 5:4

4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.




Darby Translation (DARBY)

Gal 5:4


4Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated [from him], as many as are justified by law; ye have fallen from grace.




Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Gal 5:4


4ye were freed from the Christ, ye who in law are declared righteous; from the grace ye fell away;





Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Gal 5:4


4 You who are trying to be justified by the law are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace!

So I am going to have go with the Bible on that one.

If they were severed from Christ and lost the Salvation, why didn't Paul say to them " You lost the Salvation,

It is hard to see the difference from here -- no text of scripture says "Salvation while severed from Christ" - John describes it in John 15 as being cut off from Christ, Paul as "severed from Christ" -- those who imagine that "severed from Christ" and "cut off from Christ" is "SAVED" have to come up with a Bible text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Fine -- if the Gal 5 statements about "Fallen From Grace" being "SEVERED from Christ" still mean "SAVED and going to heaven" -- then all you have to do is show that from scripture.

The Severed From Christ and "Fallen from Grace" translation is affirmed by a great many translators. If you are going to make your case on the argument that your translation is better - I am going to have to agree to differ with you.

Just stay with KJV. It doesn't say the severance but becoming useless.
If they lost the salvation, why does Paul continue to tell them to Walk in the Spirit? Can the people who lost the Salvation walk in the Spirit? ( Gal 5;16)

So I am going to have go with the Bible on that one.

It is hard to see the difference from here -- no text of scripture says "Salvation while severed from Christ" - John describes it in John 15 as being cut off from Christ, Paul as "severed from Christ" -- those who imagine that "severed from Christ" and "cut off from Christ" is "SAVED" have to come up with a Bible text.

in Christ,

Bob

John 15 must be either " Unsaved from the beginning and therefore couldn't bear fruits" or " Saved but lost the fellowship with God and therefore was deserted, which doesn't mean the loss of salvation" It depends on how to understand " throw away to the fire"

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: But Fallen from the Grace doesn't mean the Loss of Salvation

HP: According to Scripture, is salvation the grace of God revealed and offered to man? According to Scripture can you have salvation apart from grace?

 

[Eliyahu]

HP: According to Scripture, is salvation the grace of God revealed and offered to man? According to Scripture can you have salvation apart from grace?

There are many types of Grace other than the Salvation itself.

Receving the crown of righteousness is one of them which can be granted only to the more blessed people.

One can lose the Grace without losing the Salvation.

Already, Gal 5:4 and Re 2 show the cases. I wonder why you interpret the other way.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: There are many types of Grace other than the Salvation itself.
Receving the crown of righteousness is one of them which can be granted only to the more blessed people.

HP: If receiving a crown of righteousness is another type of grace, then can I assume that one does not have to be saved to receive it?

Eliyahu: Already, Gal 5:4 and Re 2 show the cases. I wonder why you interpret the other way.

HP: How do either of these passages tell an unbiased reader that “One can lose the Grace without losing the Salvation?” You have to address the verses from the presupposition you say you are getting from the verse in order to get such an interpretation. I see that as simply begging the question. You are assuming without proof the assumptions you are making that you should be trying to establish from the verse itself, apart from any such presuppositions such as OSAS. Remove your presuppositions of OSAS and the verse establishes no evidence whatsoever in line with your conclusions, but quite clearly establishes the very opposite of them.

Why do you not see that OSAS is an unfounded notion in these texts? Do you understand how the presupposition of OSAS drives and establishes your conclusions, and not the text itself?

 

[Eliyahu]

HP: If receiving a crown of righteousness is another type of grace, then can I assume that one does not have to be saved to receive it?

No, the salvation is the fundamental basis. Crown of righteousness can be lost without losing the Salvation.

HP: How do either of these passages tell an unbiased reader that “One can lose the Grace without losing the Salvation?” You have to address the verses from the presupposition you say you are getting from the verse in order to get such an interpretation. I see that as simply begging the question. You are assuming without proof the assumptions you are making that you should be trying to establish from the verse itself, apart from any such presuppositions such as OSAS. Remove your presuppositions of OSAS and the verse establishes no evidence whatsoever in line with your conclusions, but quite clearly establishes the very opposite of them.

Why do you not see that OSAS is an unfounded notion in these texts? Do you understand how the presupposition of OSAS drives and establishes your conclusions, and not the text itself?

As I mentioned, if you read the later part of the chapter, Paul doesn't say that they should recover the Salvation as you read 5:16, but asked them to walk in the Spirit. If they lost the salvation, how could they walk in the Spirit?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

If there are those that can access the last page you are doing better than I. I cannot see the last page so I cannot at this time respond to Eliyahu or others that might have posted. The problem is just with this one thread and only the last page. Who knows the cause.

Eliyahu, if you so desire, send me a copy of your response to my private messages and will try and respond. Possibly the problem I am having will soon resolve itself. Thanks.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Clearly, this passage has nothing whatsoever to do with losing one's salvation. Paul is clearly teaching that those who revert back to "keeping the law" in order to gain the favor of God (salvation), have "fallen from grace," that is, they have chosen to ignore the grace of God and try to make it to heaven on their own merit.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

It would seem to me that when one counts another as a member of a cult, we would be counting them out of the kingdom, at least from our limited perspective. It would be as to say, you’re lost and in need of a Savior. Do you agree or disagree?

I agree. When I refer to someone as being in a "cult," I am saying that they are in an organization that denies the deity of Jesus Christ. Recognizing that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh is absolutely necessary for salvation. Those who deny this vital fundamental truth cannot be saved.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Eliyahu: Crown of righteousness can be lost without losing the Salvation.

HP: Can you establish this point by Scripture?

Eliyahu: As I mentioned, if you read the later part of the chapter, Paul doesn't say that they should recover the Salvation as you read 5:16, but asked them to walk in the Spirit. If they lost the salvation, how could they walk in the Spirit?

HP: Paul recognized that he was not the final judge of those he was addressing. His admonition served a two fold purpose, i.e., to encourage those walking in the Spirit to continue, and to shed light on the path of those not walking in the Spirit, to begin to walk as they should. If one is not walking in the spirit, one would need to examine themselves and to repent for sins that they have been entrapped in, and to turn in obedience and faith into a walk in the Spirit.

There are most likely those on this list that are not born again or are not now walking as they should. I could admonish all to ‘walk in the Sprit’ could I not? Those walking in the Spirit would receive admonition to continue and those not walking in the Spirit could receive light as to their condition, encouraging them to get on the right path and begin again or for the first time, to walk in the Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Clearly, this passage has nothing whatsoever to do with losing one's salvation. Paul is clearly teaching that those who revert back to "keeping the law" in order to gain the favor of God (salvation), have "fallen from grace," that is, they have chosen to ignore the grace of God and try to make it to heaven on their own merit.

Seems like I almost never differ with Pastor_Bob on this board - but I will make an exception here.

Notice that in Gal 5 Paul argues that "you were running well" and then asks "who hindered you?".

Is it your argument that the lost "were running well"?

Is it your position that the "lost were joined to Christ" but then later "were severed from Christ" ?

Is it your position that Gal 5 should have said
"you are not saved - you have always been severed from Christ and you are continuing to deny grace as you always have"
- or are you saying that what it says (as we read it below) is the same thing as the above so that you would accept either one as an accurate translation of the text?



Galatians 5
1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.


Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?


Let me ask you another question, suppose you came to Gal 5 with NO predisposition for OSAS -- after reading Gal 5 would you have come away thinking "severed from Christ means saved" or would you come way thinking "you were running well ... but you have been severed from Christ" means "you were never saved to start with"?



In Christ,

Bob