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CURIOUS RE: "ELECT" "CHOSEN"

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by inpeace, Jun 18, 2005.

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  1. inpeace

    inpeace New Member

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    hello everyone, i'm new to the forum and have a question regarding the 'chosen/elect' i can see what a calvinists view is re the 'elect' - and i would like to hear the answer to that from an arminian point of view. look fwd to any replies!

    in christ,
    'inpeace'
     
    #1 inpeace, Jun 18, 2005
  2. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Greetings inpeace it's nice to meet you. :cool:

    john.
     
    #2 johnp., Jun 18, 2005
  3. inpeace

    inpeace New Member

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    hi johnp, thanks for your reply. i've been searching the scriptures for myself and to be honest, have only just discovered (via the internet) that there is a difference in bible interpretation, calvin's and arminian's. i've read about calvinists and what they believe, but dont know alot about the arminian's POV when it comes to the 'elect/chosen'. an arminian article i read states that God looked through time and chose those who he saw would believe in him. john 6:44 has got me confused now in light of that POV that man chose God. "no one can come to me unless drawn by the father who sent me; and i will raise that person on the last day". so, as silly as it may sound (forgive me - this is all new to me..) who in fact makes the first move? man or God? maybe i'm reading too much into it, but i believe the bible has ALOT more to teach than just what it 'appears' to reveal to us.

    In Christ,
    inpeace
     
    #3 inpeace, Jun 19, 2005
  4. Soulman

    Soulman New Member

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    Jesus made the first move on the cross. We are all invited to partake.

    Quoted by Inpeace: "no one can come to me unless drawn by the father who sent me; and i will raise that person on the last day".

    God draws all men to come to Him. He doesn't want that any would reject Him.

    2 Peter 3:9
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Revelation 3:20
    Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    He says ALL should come and if any man hear my voice. WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED.
     
    #4 Soulman, Jun 19, 2005
  5. Joman

    Joman New Member

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    1Ti 2:4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
     
    #5 Joman, Jun 19, 2005
  6. inpeace

    inpeace New Member

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    thks soulman, so that means, the cross made salvation possible for me, i just have to accept that jesus died on the cross for me and then i am saved.... what does the bible mean when it says that God predestined people? does God already know that i will accept his offer? because then that means he would've known that from the beginning of time/before the foundation of the world? what happens if i fall away/change my mind? was i 'ever' one of the predestined ones?

    'inpeace'
     
    #6 inpeace, Jun 19, 2005
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Here is what one well known Calvinist thought --

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1148.html#000000
    "Election" of the FEW of MATT 7 appears a lot like "arbitrary selection"!
     
    #7 BobRyan, Jun 19, 2005
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Of course "One" Calvinist here thinks that election is determined by genetics!!


    quote:Bob asks
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So you did not say that all the CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN of the elect ARE ALSO saved - elect?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What a hoot!
     
    #8 BobRyan, Jun 19, 2005
  9. inpeace

    inpeace New Member

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    thanks bob, here's another 'silly one'. so if i make the decision to accept and so be saved as it states, how can i be sure that i am indeed saved? honestly, i know alot of so-called christians who have prayed the 'prayer of salvation', but... how can i put it... bear bad fruit?? they believe they are saved because they believed in their heart, confessed with their mouths etc .... and therefore they are saved?! i dont know, maybe i need more than that, it just seems too simple/easy... i've always viewed a christian life to be a tough life to live in light of the world today, therefore in a way it amazes me that the new-age churches are getting really overcrowded with 'believers'.. not judging, but doesnt it take a little more than a decision and a prayer to totally transform a life? now i'm confusing myself... i hope you know what i mean...
     
    #9 inpeace, Jun 19, 2005
  10. inpeace

    inpeace New Member

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    Why does God elect some and not others? Without a doubt he could save everyone if he wanted to? It wouldn't matter if we had a choice in the matter or not. Is accepting or rejecting salvation a test for us? I'm starting to see this whole thing as a big plan - and the fact that some go to hell is part of it too... just a thought.
     
    #10 inpeace, Jun 19, 2005
  11. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Hello inpeace.

    I see you have met Bob. :cool: My fame is spread abroad! I am quoted by others! I've made it at last! :cool:

    You have a load of questions. Would you like to narrow it down to a few or are you just feeling things out?

    RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

    The antidote to Arminianism is the revealing of the Sovereignty of God.

    john.
     
    #11 johnp., Jun 19, 2005
  12. rc

    rc New Member

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    IN Peace,

    Instead of asking a bunch of yahoo's like us, read what the leaders of the church (over 300 of the greatest theologians in the world) said was the proper, orthodox, OFFICIAL doctrine of the church. It's called the Westminster Confession of Faith.

    To see what they deemed heresy, read the Council of Dort.

    A fair amount of people on this forum take things greatly out of context due to untrained, misguided or unguided reading of scripture. This prideful way of teaching one's self usually leads to heresy. And when one is informed or instructed to be taught what is orthodox and what the great teachers God has given us said, their pride shows (and you will see this) by railing defensive accusations of elitism, and intellectualism with a pseudo pious retort of "All I need is the Bible" ... as they keep strolling down the road of prideful, unteached heresy.
     
    #12 rc, Jun 19, 2005
  13. inpeace

    inpeace New Member

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    thanks rc, i'll have a read of the two things that you've noted above. you're right though, it's amazing how we can so easily judge and offend our brothers and sisters in christ due to different POV's. i'm pretty sure that this is NOT what God's intention is for us all. i think christians have too many other denominations that they should be concentrating on 'correcting'/'helping'/'bringing into the light'. for new people like myself, this kinda' carry on among christians themselves can be a real 'turn off'.
    not intended to offend, simply my own POV.

    inpeace
     
    #13 inpeace, Jun 19, 2005
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1. Does this mean you reject the idea that "election is based on genetics"???

    2. Do you "agree with scripture" that it is the FEW of MATT 7 that are IN -- not the "MANY" identified in that chapter??

    3. Do you agree with the "scenario" of saved Parents that might just so happen to have a child that is not "elect"???

    4. Do you agree with or deny 1Cor 13?

    (We are starting with the easy stuff).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #14 BobRyan, Jun 19, 2005
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matt 7 is not something "made up by Arminians" it is Christ speaking. "By their fruits you shall know them".

    It is what it is.

    The Arminian "can know" that he is saved today - but can not know that 10 years from today he will remain saved,... "continue to persevere"...

    The 5 point Calvinist cannot even know "that".


    Try Romans 8:13-16.

    How do you read that "basis" for assurance??


    Sure - FIRST there is

    #1. The SUPERNATURAL drawing of ALL MANKIND John 12:32 to God.

    #2. The SUPERNATURAL work of the Holy Spirit to "CONVICT THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgmet"

    #3. And before all that we had "THE GOD THAT SO LOVED the World that HE GAVE... yes really!"

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Jun 19, 2005
  16. inpeace

    inpeace New Member

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    thanks bob, will read over the scriptures you gave me and have a further think, then get back onto the board again.

    still learning,
    inpeace
     
    #16 inpeace, Jun 19, 2005
  17. OCC

    OCC Guest

    rc...that is your opinion. The reason Calvinists are charged with being elitist is because they are. Didn't you say I was "confused" because I didn't agree with you? That came across as arrogant and yes, elitist.

    I wish to engage in elitism as well. You arrogantly told me to take some grammar lessons...I think you should do likewise. I have never heard the expression "UNTEACHED heresy". God bless. [​IMG]
     
    #17 OCC, Jun 20, 2005
  18. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    Election is probably true. The gross error of Reformed people is that they consistantly assume that THEY are the elect. There is no test for election. God could have only elected Pelagians.
     
    #18 billwald, Jun 20, 2005
  19. OCC

    OCC Guest

    Good point. Now...I wish CHRISTIANS would consider each other Christians. I'm sick of being called a pelagian or a heretic, etc. because I'm not a Calvinist.

    To all the Calvinists here...Calvin was a murderer, no? If so, does that mean YOU are? Or would you rather I consider you CHRISTIAN BROTHERS?
     
    #19 OCC, Jun 20, 2005
  20. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    I was told either I was a Calvinist and just didn't know it or I wasn't saved!
     
    #20 dianetavegia, Jun 20, 2005
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