Cussing without cussing.. Possible or no?

[JamieinNH]

At a Bible study tonight, someone bought up the subject of cussing without actually using cuss words. She knows cussing is bad, especially using the Lord's name in vain, but one of her terms she uses a good deal is goodness gracious.

That sparked a discussion. Are you cussing if you use different words when a "normal" person would cuss. An example. IF a normal person would say s**t, but someone says sugar instead, or a normal person says f**k and another person says fudge or the likes, is that still bad?

The dicussion was a good one in that some people believe that it's good to avoid the cuss words and use the subs, but others think that maybe even the subs are just as bad only because of the context they are being used. Since most people would know what you really meant when you used a sub, you are defeating the purpose of the sub word.

What do you guys think? It was a great question I thought and I wanted to get your opinion on this matter.

Thanks!
Jamie

 

[EdSutton]

Obviously, I've got way too much time on my hands!

Ed

 

[Scarlett O.]

Ephsians 4:29 - "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying that it may minster grace unto the hearers."

I suppose one would have to ask himself or herself if their speech was edifying or not. Sometimes we get into a habit of saying what we think are beneign little words, when really they are not.

And habits are hard to break.

Are we saying these words with the same anger, resentment, shock value, or crudeness as the "real" words? That's not edifying.

Are we using substitutes for foul language and thinkimg that it's somehow cute to tiptoe right of up to the line of indecent speech without actually crossing over and thereby deeming ourselves "innocent"? That's not edifying, either.

Are we showing others that we are in bondage to a habit of perhaps not corrupt communication, but immature and non-profitable communication? That's also not edifying.

It's hard for me to write this post, because I, personally, am in bondage to a few substitute words. I won't tell you the ones that I say, because that's immaterial. But when I find myself saying these words without even realizing that I am saying them, that's what I mean by bondage.

Proverbs 13:3 - "He who guards his lips, guards his life...."

Self-explanatory.

 

[Lagardo]

I can think of a couple of things to consider.

First of all, why is it wrong to cuss? Aside from using the Lord's name in vain (which covers more than cussing), what is wrong with certain four letter words? They offend. They hurt our testimony. They are course language. In that regard, the substitute words may be better. Not long ago, I worked in an environment where cussing was constant. My coworkers knew I was a Christian and would have been shocked if I said a cuss word, but didn't think twice if I said "dang" or "shoot."

There is another thing, though. The heart. Matthew 5:22 alludes to a cuss word of the day, "Raca." It was so offensive that for a Jew to say it to another Jew could get you drug before the council. The word meant "idiot" but had the weight of a cuss word. Jesus reminds though that "you fool" (same meaning, nice words) could put you in danger of hellfire. Why? Because the heart of anger against your brother is more important than the words of your mouth.

So with that in mind, I'd say, sure its better in many ways to say a nicer word, but we must be careful at what we are really saying? There is no nice way to express hatred toward someone, for instance.

Just some thoughts...and one more: Rather than worrying about how close to cussing I can get, its best to consider what I can say to glorify God.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Just to define the words, what is a profanity?

What is a vulgarity?

What is a curse word?

Are they the same thing?

Does using the Lord's name in vain fall into these categories?

I use "phooey" quite a bit, and it's not a substitute, it's simply an interjection, and if that's wrong in and of itself, better not say "ouch!"

Now, some words, such as "Jumpin' Jehosephat" are, at least according to urban legend coined by people who didn't want offend by saying something else. "Fudge", probably falls into this category.

 

[Alcott]

Well, my goodness gracious! I sure do wish we didn't have to hear all that cotton-pickin' cussin'! Both my grandmothers had real 'thing' about cussing, and when they heard me say a few such words they told my dad, who threatened to use his belt on me if I didn't "quit talkin' that way." It was he that I had learned most of those words and expression from. But both grandmothers, I might mention, thought it horrible to hear the expression becoming popular on television, "Oh, my god!" But both of them also, from the earliest I remember, when surprised, would say, "My Lord!" What's the freakin' difference?

 

[D28guy]

I used to curse all the time when I was lost. After I got born again it all just stopped. I didnt have to "work" at not swearing. The words just wouldnt come out anymore. I knew that gutter language has no buisiness coming out of the mouth of a child of God.

Now, I say things like "goodness gracious", and "darn", and "shoot" all the time. I dont even think of those as "curse words without cursing". They are just words that express amazment, frustration, etc.

An interesting thing happened to me on this site a couple years or so ago. I was posting on one of the "general conversation" type of boards on this site and I typed out the word "Geeez!" to express that something was dumb or something.

A moderator (((deleted it))) and warned me!!!

I couldnt believe it. Here I am deliberatly choosing something in order to specifically NOT take Christs name in vain...like I would have said back when I was lost...and I get zapped! :laugh:

Honestly, its stuff like that that makes lost people think we christians are a bunch of kooks or something.

In Christ,

Mike

 

[StefanM]

Mike, you got snipped because that's actually a shortened form of "Jesus."

 

[Alcott]

I knew that gutter language has no buisiness coming out of the mouth of a child of God.

Does that, perhaps, exemplify what "cussing" is really about?-- snobbishness of how "high class," or educated, people talked, as opposed to how the "lower," or working class talked? That's certainly the case for the 4 letter words, if you know the history of the English language; that the serfs who only spoke in English used the Germanic words to describe the same body parts or functions as the higher classes, speaking French-- or ultimately Latin-- based words? Since that is, in fact, the basis of profanity, is it necessarily filthy communication, since it is based on snobbery, which is very arguably more evil biblically?

 

[D28guy]

Alcott,

I said...

"

I knew that gutter language has no buisiness coming out of the mouth of a child of God."

And you said...

"Does that, perhaps, exemplify what "cussing" is really about?-- snobbishness of how "high class," or educated, people talked, as opposed to how the "lower," or working class talked? That's certainly the case for the 4 letter words, if you know the history of the English language; that the serfs who only spoke in English used the Germanic words to describe the same body parts or functions as the higher classes, speaking French-- or ultimately Latin-- based words? Since that is, in fact, the basis of profanity, is it necessarily filthy communication, since it is based on snobbery, which is very arguably more evil biblically?"

Hmmm. I dont know about all that. I'll take your word for it regarding all those other languages, but I think it might be possible you are over-analysing the thing.

For me, its just gutter language. Dirty, Filthy. (Sometimes *literally* gutter language..."Cra*" "Shi*" "Bullshi*")

I loved to talk that way when I was lost because as lost people we wanted to sound dirty. We thought it was "cool" to talk dirty. After I was born again they just wouldnt come out. I didnt have to have some legalistic preacher tell I was now forbidden to say those words or anything like that. I simply didnt want those words coming out of my mouth. I seemed to just know intuitively...thank you Holy Spirit!... that those words dont belong to me any more.

Now, having said that, I fellowship with a couple of christians, and I dont doubt their salvation in the least, and they *occasionally*...not most of the time, but occasionally...use one of those words. I dont say anything to them about it. I'm not a legalist by any streach, and for sure I'm not going to self rightiously slam them about it.

But as for me, I just dont want them coming out of my mouth. The lost think that is "cool" talk, and I want to stand in clear contrast to that.

To me the coolest thing in the world is being a born again child of God.

(by the way, for what its worth, I'm "working class" and have been my entire life)

God bless,

Mike

 

[Melanie]

....and again....there is cultural sensitivities, what constitutes an obsenity in the USA may be regarded as a vulgarity in say Australia...recent example was an ad in the USA promoting Australia and the main line was "Where the **** are you?"

When I first joined this board I was snipped a couple of times for the use of a commonplace vulgarity which had more serious connotations to American minds....I was deeply embarrased as I had not intended such.

A sweet Canadian girl was working on a station with me years ago, and dropped a vulgarity during the course of a dinner with these folk who were very conscious of their esteem, you could have heard a pin drop, sadly these so called classy folk showed their banality by embarrassing the girl (I explained latter on, she was mortified).

 

[Hope of Glory]

There are two words that I know of that today are considered vulgar that if you do an etymological study, were not at their root. But, the mind being what it is, twisted it to something vulgar and now more popular than ever.

"Screw" (as in "I'm screwed") and "sucks" (as in "that sucks"). The former had to do with torture, and was not a euphemism for the "f" word until earlier in the 20th century, and the latter had an agricultural connotation denoting "inferior" until earlier in the 20th century. They started taking on their current meanings widely in the late 60's or early 70's, and although used exactly the same way grammatically, have much different connotations.

So, they are kind of the opposite of words that were substituted for cuss words; they were perfectly good words that were turned into cuss words.

And I still absolutely refuse to use "gay" to refer to homosexuals. That was a perfectly good word until the homosexual lobby hijacked it. I still want to be gay without having to feel queer about it.

 

[JamieinNH]

Obviously, I've got way too much time on my hands!

Ed

Uhm.. I don't get it.

Jamie

 

[JamieinNH]

Thanks for the replies. Something that Scarlett and others have said makes sense. When you're replacing the words, but your heart is still "using" those words then I could see how it would be wrong.

As far as using cuss words and how it's wrong, I don't think it's wrong to actually say the words except for using the Lord's name in vain, however I do think that using cuss words damages your testimony as a Christian.

Again thanks for the replies. This question was a great question asked at the study so I wanted to get your opinion of it also.

Thanks!

Jamie

 

[drfuss]

In general, cuss words are intended to wish evil on other people or to degrade them. In both cases. it is wrong regardless of what words you use.

I have known of many Christains, including ministers, who say terrible things about other people. Because they don't use the normal cuss words, they think it is okay. Some ministers call it "righteous indignation". Of course, it is only cussing someone out using "legal" terms.

 

[Eric B]

There are two words that I know of that today are considered vulgar that if you do an etymological study, were not at their root. But, the mind being what it is, twisted it to something vulgar and now more popular than ever.

"Screw" (as in "I'm screwed") and "sucks" (as in "that sucks"). The former had to do with torture, and was not a euphemism for the "f" word until earlier in the 20th century, and the latter had an agricultural connotation denoting "inferior" until earlier in the 20th century. They started taking on their current meanings widely in the late 60's or early 70's, and although used exactly the same way grammatically, have much different connotations.

So, they are kind of the opposite of words that were substituted for cuss words; they were perfectly good words that were turned into cuss words.

And I still absolutely refuse to use "gay" to refer to homosexuals. That was a perfectly good word until the homosexual lobby hijacked it. I still want to be gay without having to feel queer about it.

I always thought those terms took on those meanings starting with the sexual connotations, and then took on the other meanings through extension (negative experiences are like a negative sexual experience).

I was surprised at how often Christians, even in preaching use the c word that substitutes for the s word (especially when covering some emotionally fervent topic like excuses used for homosexuality); and it has freely been used here from time to time. A pastor of mine corrected a friend for saying "freakin", on the basis of "it's still the same 'abundance of the heart the mouth speaks'". But then he used the c word once. It's the same basic thing as the s word, just not as common; perhaps a bit less of a "kick" to it (and it's this kick that makes all those one and two syllable words so useful as "curses"). My unsaverd parents wouldn't let me use the word any more then the other word.

I think this whole thing about "profanity", and how it is still somewhat even still recognized by the unsaved world (Can't be used just anywhere, and in any situation) is a good proof against relativity, and in favor of spiritual things (like our words being weapons, spiritually, etc).

Also, I should point out, that even the partial spelling of the words (with asterisks, dashes or underscore) is against the rules, if I remember correctly. And I think the substitute words are as well.

Funny; I was just reading this site: http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/how_the_name.htm (Basically some modern Ebionite guy who rejects Paul) how changing the Hebrew Yahshua into the "phonetically harsh" sounds "Jee-zuz Chr-i-st", is what has lent this name to becoming used as a curse.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I always thought those terms took on those meanings starting with the sexual connotations, and then took on the other meanings through extension (negative experiences are like a negative sexual experience).

LOL! So did I. I have been reading etymology dictionaries here lately, and it's really an eye-opening experience to see how words have changed meanings. Some from several hundred years ago, some in the last 50-60 years, and many of these words create confusion in Scriptures if the modern meaning is applied. Adoption, damn, hell, eternal... The words, when applied when the KJV was translated are quite correct and line up with the original languages, but incorrect when we use the modern meaning.

For example, to you, what does the word "damn" mean? (You can use multiple definitions, if you wish. I'm not looking for a dictionary definition necessarily, just what it means to you.

As for the "c" word that you're talking about, it's another one that was not offensive, but became so. It's not from Thomas Crapper, as urban legend suggests (although he was a busy plumber and may have helped develop the modern toilet), was recorded to mean "defecate" in 1846 as a verb and 1898 as a noun. I think that at the time, it may have been a polite way to say it, but I'm not sure.

I can tell you what it meant, in writings, from different times, however: from one of a cluster of words generally applied to things cast off or discarded (e.g. "weeds growing among corn" (1425), "residue from renderings" (1490s), 18c. underworld slang for "money," and in Shropshire, "dregs of beer or ale"), all probably from M.E. crappe "grain that was trodden underfoot in a barn, chaff" (c.1440), from M.Fr. crape "siftings," from O.Fr. crappe, from M.L. crappa, crapinum "chaff." Sense of "rubbish, nonsense" also first recorded 1898.

So, it was relatively recently in the history of our language that it took on the meaning that it has today. So, if you say, "That's crap!", although today it is impolite, it was not always so.

 

[windcatcher]

James 2:19-22, 26>

'....Swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:........the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. .....lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word which is able to save your souls..................If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.'
==========
Sobering, to consider that our words reflect not only our own character, but also the effectiveness of our submission to the Holy Spirit; and in as much as we are the mirror to the world of what the world sees of Christ, we either glorify him or bring to him dishonor.

I will not point any fingers. I recently said 'what the heck' relating to a question when I had just been frightenened and looked for an explanation from another. Most all here know what that substituted for..... and I did not feel good about it .......albeit, I found myself self-reporting the incident to another, expressing how off gard I felt..... and did not change the words though I felt ashamed for having used them.

The English language is so full of expressive words, I don't understand why we can't use the simple ones like 'that is just non-sense' or 'that's just trash(y)', or 'that's revolting' as an example of explecative (sp?). It is not a matter of economic class or intellectual ability which expresses the vulgar or refined through the language chosen; it is a matter of choice, personal taste, conviction and self-control.

More serious, however, than the words we choose is the 'tone' or the 'spirit' behind the words. I can read the Bible and it will 'shame' me regarding some sin in my life (Thank God, I can hear and seek his help and forgiveness in turning). My grandmother had a kind way of speaking to us children that she could use 'kind' words which would shame us over some act of disobediance and cause us to strive harder to obey for her pleasure as well as our own: Yet I have heard parents speak words to their children which were not edifying: hurtful, judgemental, condemning kind of words, which neither served to correct the children nor model respectful and godly communication. Words have spirit, and can hurt or kill as well as heal or raise up. Actions may say 'I love you', but words can say 'I reject you; you're no count; you're worthless' when really we should be saying 'I'm disappointed; you can do better than that; I know you knew better so can you explain why you didn't.......' etc.

I think this is a good topic to discuss soberly. Not to encourage any to deviate from the control which their conscience and the Spirit of God has helped them to control, but to also recognize it is a problem of our culture and age where many have no conviction, and are not aware how it may affect their testimony to others. The gospel is our priority. Santification is a process that comes after receiving the Gospel.
--------------------
Regarding, the correction of another..... I believe love and grace is foremost attitudes....... All persons present when a faux pas(social blunder) occurs, can merely pass it over as though it didn't happen. One who is a close friend may speak privately and lovingly to this issue if they find the habit is such that it creates this necessity....to avoid the person's future embarassment.... But in most cases, the deportment and conversation of Christian friends who neither assimilate such language into their speach and who model good communication will bring a brother or sister along into self- discipline as the Spirit may lead.

 

[gekko]

i'd say - if you're using the "sub" words - and it reminds you of the actual cuss words - then stop.

for me - if i say "holy smack!" - which i do time and again - it doesn't remind me of anything but - "woah! that's crazy!"

"dang" - reminds me of nothing but "oh man - that sucks" (sucks as in... a 'let-down')

i mean... if you're gonna say "oh my gosh!" - and it doesn't remind you of using the Lord's name in vain - then go ahead and say it.

ONE - be led by the Holy Spirit and use discernment.
i.e. flickoff.org is not a good use of discernment (the font in which it's spelt on the site looks a heck of alot like "F-off"

TWO - use your head if you got one. be logical.

THREE - if your conscience is buggin ya - i'd say take a seat on the bench for a bit to figure it out.

God bless!

 

[EdSutton]

Uhm.. I don't get it.

Jamie

I was referring to wasting too much of my time on this thread, when there are actually some that are really informative.

Ed