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D L Moody on 10 Commandments and Sabbath

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Mar 15, 2005.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    A Baptist web site has published the text of D L Moody's sermon on the Ten Commandments at this link...

    http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

    To be honest - I have not seen this before.

    When Moody gets to the 4th commandment - he starts out the topic like this...

    What do you think about his position on this commandment?

    What do you think about his position on the Ten Commandments?

    What do you think about his "literal" acceptance of the "creation fact"?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Mar 15, 2005
  2. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    I think that I agree with everything that he says, we have moved from saying that the sabbath should be kept, to suggesting that Christians are saved under grace and may break any of the Ten Commandments that wish to. That to me does not make any sense, why have a desire to break any of Gods Commandments to the church?
     
    #2 Ben W, Mar 16, 2005
  3. tamborine lady

    tamborine lady Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    D.L. Moody was a great man, and I agree with him 100 percent!!

    We should observe Sabbath on the Sabbath.
    [​IMG] As a matter of fact, we should try our best to keep all TEN commandments, at all times!

    Peace,

    Tam
     
    #3 tamborine lady, Mar 16, 2005
  4. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Moody doesn't say anything unusual ... Or, did I miss something?

    But, I gotta ask "why"? Your post reads like you expect that someone might (should?) be surprised that Moody preached like this.

    It is spoken like most anyone that grew up on a farm would view the Almighty God.
     
    #4 El_Guero, Mar 16, 2005
  5. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas New Member

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    I thought that the Sabbath was a 'type' -
    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. Col 2:16-17

    that was fulfilled by Christ: Hebrews 4

    Am I missing something?
     
    #5 richard n koustas, Mar 16, 2005
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Every time the subject of the 10 commandments has been discussed so far there has always been a very strong representation of the opinion that Moody quotes and then stands opposed to -

    The interesting thing is that those who have stood with Moody's position on this board have been (I think 100%) "Sabbatarian".

    Of course - after reading Moody's quote - one might also want to include him in that group.

    There have been three positions with respect to the commandments.

    #1. They were nailed to the cross and ended when the NT church started so there is no point in quoting anything found in Christ the Creator's own Law.

    A variation of this is that the law continues unchanged after the cross - but then ends for "the individual" once they are Baptized.

    #2. They were revised/edited down to 9. They continue to define sin and show us our need of salvation.

    #3. Christ the Creator's Law continues as Moody states, the 7th day Sabbath was observed by mankind in Eden as Moody states, the moral decay chain Moody identifies is valid.

    Since I was not aware that Moody took these positions before - I will attempt to refrain from stating this position by itself. I will state it in the form of a quote from Moody.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Mar 16, 2005
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Yes you are missing the fact that the Lev 23 "annual sabbaths" that were "based on sacrifices that point to Christ" were the "types" that "predicted" the future suffering and death of Christ.

    The weekly "memorial" Sabbath that was in effect "in Eden" (as Moody observes) was not a type or a "prediction" that perfect sinless obedient Adam would fail, would be totally depraved, would doom the human race to hell and would need a Savior.

    Christ the Creator makes the day holy as the 7th day of the literal week. For in SIX days the LORD MADE... (mankind's week would be SIX days were it not for Christ the Creator's Sabbath).

    So Moody is endorsing this "Sabbath from Eden" and "Sabbath for all mankind" and "Sabbath continued" theology.

    The position you have posted is the one that he is objecting to - however the position you posted is probably the dominant one on this board.

    I find that interesting.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #7 BobRyan, Mar 16, 2005
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Moody puts his convictions about the 'Sabbath' forward like many other and good Christians would, like Calvin, Luther and Wesley in particular. I remember a while ago I received correspondence from SDA's re Wesley as had he taught the 'Sabbath-truth'. I once corresponded with a suspended Calvinist Dominee and had long conversations with him and even debate, he all the while talking about Sunday calling it 'Sabbath', and I talking about Saturday calling it 'Sabbath'. Great was his astonishment - and dismay - when at last it dawned upon him I believed 'Saturday' for 'Sabbath'! This Dominee - like many ordinary and good Christians - even believed the Seventh-Day-Sabbath was Sunday!
    The most famous distorting of this kind is that of Luther's. The SDA's 'quote' Luther as admitted he Karlstadt was right about the Sabbath 'Seventh Day'. Meanwhile Luther only said, that if Karlstadt wouldn't stop writing on the Sabbath issue, Christians would all have to become Jews so that they could keep the Sabbath Day and that they would have to keep all the OT ceremonies too. (I just say what Luther actually said, which was to discard of everything Karlstadt claimed.) But this the SDA's don't say, just as they must very well know Moody spoke of the 'Sabbath' meaning Sunday, and Wesley in this case under discussion here.
     
    #8 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Mar 18, 2005
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Certainly it is true that many historically kept Sunday as the Sabbath - and used the Sabbath commandment as the "force" behind the day - rather than some "church tradition".

    That approach certainly runs contrary to the argument most make here - which is that the Ten commandments are dead and especially - Christ the Creator's Memorial of Creation week - the 7th day Sabbath.

    However the Approach Moody takes is to observe that the 7th day (not the first) was ketp in Eden was explicit at Sinai and remains to this day as binding.

    From the same quote Moody said --

    Interesting how Moody has "his OWN Day of rest" that "just so happens" to be Christ's day.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #9 BobRyan, Mar 18, 2005
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    This board is relatively quiet on this sujbect. Am I the only one that did not know that Moody took this position on the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath???

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Mar 18, 2005
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Given D L Moody's insistence that this commandment of Christ is valid - and yet "subject to change" as man would have it --

    Another quote comes to mind.

    The Catholic commentary on the Baltimore catechism post
    Vatican ii explains that keeping Sunday is in obedience to the Sabbath commandment. Catholics attend "in obedience to the third commandment of God 'remember thou keep holy the Lord's day'"
    ((from "The Faith Explained" pg 241.))

    page 243

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #11 BobRyan, Mar 18, 2005
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Post removed for another thread.
     
    #12 BobRyan, Mar 18, 2005
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Quoting Bob Ryan who quoted Moody as saying,
    "Saturday is my day of rest, because I generally preach on Sunday, and I look forward to it as a boy does to a holiday. God knows what we need.

    Interesting how Moody has "his OWN Day of rest" that "just so happens" to be Christ's day."

    I forgot my computer on and now to the horor of Eric B will use it on God's Sabbath Day for this a little comment:

    Yes Bob, Sunday makes the best of the best of Christian double-tongued.
    Moody actually speaks derogatory of the Seventh Day, putting it right under his feet and control, looking forward to it as a schoolboy would for his own pleasure irrespective of the fact the Seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God.
    He admits not he should still be under the control of the Sabbath for being the Seventh Day, but submits to be under the control of it for being Sunday, when he must preach the Word of God.

    This sort of sanctimonious hypocrisy breaks my heart.
     
    #13 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Mar 19, 2005
  14. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    It's not to my horror if you post on the Sabbath. It's the commandment that you claim to follow, that says not to do any work or pleasure. (and if posting here is "evangelistic" work (allowed on the sabbath) to "win" sundaykeepers; then it is not allowed on this board!)

    And you're right. It is double talk for the church to have applied the fourth commandment all those years to Sunday; and only now; when Sabbathkeepers challenge us do we then respond "Oh, the sabbath is not in effect". I have read literature; like the Radio Bible Class booklet on the subject; that shows that we do not keep the sabbath, because Christ did away with it; but then takes the proof-texts for Sunday (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor. 16:2, Rev.1:10) and then after establishing this now as "the Lord's Day"; for all purpose establish Sunday as a de-facto sabbath! (we really should avoid working if possible; and by all means our own peasure, etc). But usually; it is not the same people using one argument that use the other. Basically; most evangelicals today, say it is abolished. But we are continuing the "orthodox" tradition of those in the past who said the sabbath was not abolished; only moved to Sunday. So still; it is the same double standard.
     
    #14 Eric B, Mar 19, 2005
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That is correct.

    And Moody addressed that point when he said ..

    My point in quoting that is to show that when I make the same argument - it is in fact - Moody's argument. If it makes someone on this board feel better to only view it as a quote from Moody - that is fine with me.

    In either case - the argument against abolishing the commandment is being stated.

    If Moody's position is not allowed here - then someone should say so.

    Indeed - those who try to "have it both ways are holding to a double-standard" as you say.

    But my question would be that Moody is not quite in that camp.

    Moody "appears" to take the position that the commandment is still authorotative - but it has been "edited" so that instead of "God sanctifying the day" mankind may pick any day out of seven and sanctify their own - and this would be in perfect keeping with the commandment.

    (Not an argument you see people make very often here).

    I would "hope" the people here that abolish the Commands of God - would at least admit that "editing them" is out of the question and that they are either "IN" or "out".

    However Moody makes an interesting point about this command being observed in Eden. (Again making the same argument that I have been making).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Mar 19, 2005
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I don't know who that is directed to - or what brought that on - but the premise seems to be that Baptists like Ben that happen to be Sabbath keepers (Seventh-day Baptist I think) - are not welcome if they state their beliefs on the 4th commandment in the way that Moody has stated his belief on that same subject.

    Or is it your claim that a Baptist can not actually keep the 4th commandment and still be considered a Baptist??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #16 BobRyan, Mar 19, 2005
  17. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    While there are some 7th Day Baptists; still, the majority are not; and some may see the 7th day as heretical--especially when it is attempted to persuade people that it is necessary to be a true ("obedient") Christian. Still; it is not a "Baptist distinctive"; but seen more as an outside doctrine. If guess a 7th Day Baptist could try to preach it on the Baptist only forums (do 7th Day Baptists even preach it at other Baptists?); but for an SDA or anyone else to come onto the Baptist Board preaching it I'm sure is at best a compromise of the rules.
     
    #17 Eric B, Mar 21, 2005
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Some baptists are Arminian and Some Calvinist - I am Arminian - should I be "allowed" to post in favor of the Arminian view on the "ALL OTHER denominations section?" - OR do you suggest it should be held to a popular vote and the minority position should not be allowed for non-Baptist to post in favor of that view?

    How strange is that Eric??

    In this case - it is actually D.L Moody that is being quoted. Let me guess - "Don't quote D,L Moody if he takes a POV on some doctrine on which the majority here do not STILL side with him"

    How strange indeed!

    Are you familiar with the teaching on the priesthood of all believers? How would that square with the kind of sensorship you propose for positions HELD by Baptists (by entire Baptist denominations - such as the 7th-day Baptists) and even by key Christian leaders like Moody?

    (Remember that historically the Adventsts were not Sabbath keeping at all until the 7th-day Baptists brought the point up to them!)

    Imagine the change if all the Baptists listened to the 7th-day Baptists as did the Adventists!

    Have you considered adopting a less RC-in-the-dark-ages view of tolerance for Bible doctrines where you have another POV?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Mar 22, 2005
  19. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Baptists are more divided down the middle in the Calvinist-Arminian controversy. BaptistFire Board does strictly forbid Calvinists from pitching their doctrine over there. I don't know of any distinctively Cavlinst Baptist boards that forbid Arminianism.
    Still; the 7th day Sabbath is more associated with non-Baptist groups (and many heretical, anti-trinitarian ones at that!), and as was pointed out; Moody clearly was applying "the sabbath" to Sunday. That would be more according to tradition, and would not be seen as unBaptistic; because I'm sure many Baptists did in the past hold Sunday as a Sabbath (don't Primitives and others like that still do si?)
     
    #19 Eric B, Mar 22, 2005
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The question is whether Moody's arguments are valid regarding the 4th commandment.

    1. He claims it was kept in Eden - as I have claimed on this board.

    2. HE claims it is STILL binding and has lost none of its authority for Christians - as I have cliamed.

    3. He claims that HIS selection for the Sabbath - is the SAME 7th day Friday-Saturday Sabbath that Christ the Creator Chose in Eden.. I have made the same claim about my own accpetance of that day.

    4. HE implies that the day is "editable" and that we may each "sanctify" our own day rather than following the SPECIFIC day that Christ the Creator made Holy. I reject that idea and some on this board that do not keep Sabbath have AT LEAST agreed on THIS point with me.

    5. HE claims that a disregard of this commandment of Christ will errode our family structure and nation.

    (I claim that disregard will open the door to evolutionism - which opens the door to abortion rights and the gay agenda -- given enough time. I also claim that evilutionism undermines the Bible, the Gospel and our view of God).

    So are you objecting to my highlight of HIS points in 1-3 or do you object to my highlight of HIS point in point-4 where OTHERS here (non-Sabbath keepers) agree that the commandments are NOT editable?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #20 BobRyan, Mar 22, 2005
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