Dan 2 and Dan 7 include Future Event 2nd Coming

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
I don't believe like the Millerites that the Book of Daniel predicts the current events of Church history. I believe Daniel's Eschaton ended at the destruction of the Temple and the beginning of the Church age.

Some would say that Dan 2 and 7 show 4 world empires starting with "you o king" - Nebuchadnezzar (Babylon) and then Medo Persia, and then Greece and then Rome and then the divided Roman empire, 1260 years of the dark ages and then the 2nd coming.



So you don't see the future events in Dan 2 and Dan 7 describing the 2nd coming like .. Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Adam Clarke, Matthew Henry, Jamieson, Fausset, Brown, D.L. Moody, ... I can understand that you would differ with them at times, but why would we all join in opposing them on that point?

Surely you can see that all on this board would not choose to oppose them on that point of Daniel 7 pointing to events in the Roman empire long after the death of Christ and going all the way to the second coming.

And the reason for thinking that Dan 7 and Dan 2 include events beyond the life of Christ?

Well here is the hint we get in the text itself showing the image from head to toe and the feet and toes taking us to the time of divided Roman Empire - Europe and the 2nd coming

Dan 2

31 “You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. 32 The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.34 You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.


...


42 As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.

43 And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.


44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”
===================================

In the same way Dan 7 says that the events in the vision cover the world all the way until the coming of Christ and the saints take possession of the kingdom.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

[/I]


Some would say that Dan 2 and 7 show 4 world empires starting with "you o king" - Nebuchadnezzar (Babylon) and then Medo Persia, and then Greece and then Rome and then the divided Roman empire, 1260 years of the dark ages and then the 2nd coming.



So you don't see the future events in Dan 2 and Dan 7 describing the 2nd coming like .. Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Adam Clarke, Matthew Henry, Jamieson, Fausset, Brown, D.L. Moody, ... I can understand that you would differ with them at times, but why would we all join in opposing them on that point?

Surely you can see that all on this board would not choose to oppose them on that point of Daniel 7 pointing to events in the Roman empire long after the death of Christ and going all the way to the second coming.

And the reason for thinking that Dan 7 and Dan 2 include events beyond the life of Christ?

Well here is the hint we get in the text itself showing the image from head to toe and the feet and toes taking us to the time of divided Roman Empire - Europe and the 2nd coming

Dan 2

31 “You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. 32 The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.34 You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.


...


42 As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.

43 And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.


44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”
===================================

In the same way Dan 7 says that the events in the vision cover the world all the way until the coming of Christ and the saints take possession of the kingdom.

Bob I'm Amillenialist in my Eschatology and I would love to go over the specifics of Daniel with you and how I view it. But I'll have to get out my books and review my notes because I want to be thorough. When I first accepted Jesus and made that alter call at an evangelical meeting in my youth I bought whole scale into the Rapture Echatology. I remember watching the Theif in the Night Series and another non related movie where a guy was evangelizing like David Wilkerson in the cross and the switchblade was eventually killed for proclaiming Christ where at the end of the film it show him bursting out of the grave flying into heaven. I was all into that! In fact I remember (because I went to a Christian boarding school) one morning I forgot it was the weekend and went to the cafeteria earlier than it opened and saw no one on campus. I had a fleeting fear I was left behind at that time. I remember thinking "I don't know why God left me behind but I'm going stay faithful when the one world government comes for me!" However, over the years and scripture study I began to move away from that view of the Eschaton. So let me get back with you tonight and go over it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Just some points on the book of Daniel. Daniel was written in the 6th Century B.C. during Judea's Babylonian Captivity. The reason it is important to mention this because of a simple truth. The Messiah hadn't come yet. With the coming of the Messiah would bring an end to the Old Order of things. So for the Jews of Daniels day they didn't view their eschaton as being the second advent of Jesus Christ but the first. We notice in Daniel 2 that Daniel reveals that each part of the Statue n the Kings dream represents a world empire. The Kingdoms spoken of have historically been viewed as Babylon(Gold), Medeo-Persia(Silver), Greece(Bronze) and Rome(Iron). An interesting note on this last Empire where Daniel says

There shall be a fourth Kingdom, strong as Iron...it shall break and crush all...And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potters clay and partly of, iron it shall be a divided kingdom. As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another...but they will not hold together -Dan 2:40-43

Jerome comments on this saying

just as at first there was nothing stronger, and hardier than the Roman realm, so also in these last days, there is nothing more feeble, since we require the assistance of Barbarian tribes. -Comentaria in Danielem

Also note that Daniel says in vs 34-35

A stone was cut out by no human hand, and it smote the image on its feet... so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth

Daniel interprets this to mean the while the fourth kingdom is still around

And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall this kingdom be left to other people. It shall crush these kingdoms and bring them to an end , and it shat stand forever.

Thus in Chapter 2 Daniel shows that during the 4th Kingdom the Messianic Kingdom will be established. Therefore when we get to Chapter 7 we see these same kingdoms now represented by animals Lion (Babylon), Bear (Medo-Persia), Leopard with wings (Macedonia/Greece note Alexander had a fast moving army and was known for it), Terrifying beast with great iron teeth (Rome). Which the ten horns symbolizes the ten provinces which made up Rome.

 

[BobRyan]

Just some points on the book of Daniel. Daniel was written in the 6th Century B.C. during Judea's Babylonian Captivity. The reason it is important to mention this because of a simple truth. The Messiah hadn't come yet. With the coming of the Messiah would bring an end to the Old Order of things. So for the Jews of Daniels day they didn't view their eschaton as being the second advent of Jesus Christ but the first.

They predicted 4 world empires starting with Babylon - named as such in Dan 2. Then Medo-Persia - named as such in Dan 8, then Greece - named as such in Dan 8 - then a 4th empire that would later split into 10 divisions (So that would be Rome) - and the prediction in Dan 2 is that the divided Roman empire would try to reunite through wars and through marriage alliances - but it would never come back as it was.

Which means of course - the EU has a limit beyond which it will never go.

But more importantly - in Dan 7 the ultimate end of the world is seen with the coming of the eternal Kingdom - crushing all others.

In Dan 7 all persecution of the saints ends with that coming - and God is the ruler of all the Earth along with the saints.

But Dan 7 adds one more detail - the 1260 years of dark ages and persecution of the saints between the split - the division of the Romans empire and the final event where God's kingdom is setup.

We notice in Daniel 2 that Daniel reveals that each part of the Statue n the Kings dream represents a world empire. The Kingdoms spoken of have historically been viewed as Babylon(Gold), Medeo-Persia(Silver), Greece(Bronze) and Rome(Iron). An interesting note on this last Empire where Daniel says Jerome comments on this saying Also note that Daniel says in vs 34-35 Daniel interprets this to mean the while the fourth kingdom is still around

The 4th kingdom - Rome is the kingdom of solid Iron in Dan 2. The legs are all of Iron.

But then it is divided and weakened - going into the ten toes - partly iron and partly of clay.

In the days of those ending kingdoms - the mountain strikes the image in the section that is of "iron and clay" -- the toes. The divided Roman Empire that we still have today.

Dan 2
. 42 As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.
43 And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.
44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

45 Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

. Therefore when we get to Chapter 7 we see these same kingdoms now represented by animals Lion (Babylon), Bear (Medo-Persia), Leopard with wings (Macedonia/Greece note Alexander had a fast moving army and was known for it), Terrifying beast with great iron teeth (Rome). Which the ten horns symbolizes the ten provinces which made up Rome.

The division of the Roman Empire - was such that it divides into ten sections that are never re-united just as Daniel 2 states.

But Dan 7 gives us the added detail about the 1260 years of the dark ages that take place after the division of Rome into 10 kingdoms.

It has to do with an 11th kingdom that uproots 3 of the original ten according to Dan 7.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thinkingstuff]

They predicted 4 world empires starting with Babylon - named as such in Dan 2. Then Medo-Persia - named as such in Dan 8, then Greece - named as such in Dan 8 - then a 4th empire that would later split into 10 divisions (So that would be Rome) - and the prediction in Dan 2 is that the divided Roman empire would try to reunite through wars and through marriage alliances - but it would never come back as it was.

Which means of course - the EU has a limit beyond which it will never go.

You made a large illogical jump which I colored for you. Rome was made up of ten provinces and if you know anything about how Rome operated you know that it mixed itself with barbarian leadership which were always contesting with Rome the city itself. Therefore there is no need to jump illogically 2,000 years into the future and make some allusion to the EU which Daniel didn't even envision in his book. That is pure supposition.

But more importantly - in Dan 7 the ultimate end of the world is seen with the coming of the eternal Kingdom - crushing all others.

The problem with your interpretation of Daniel 7 is clear. You fail to recognize that Jesus established the Kingdom at his 1st advent. You are still waiting on something already present. It is however clear in the text that the messianic Kingdom is established during the 4th Kingdom. Holding to your belief that there will be a future "resurrected roman empire" such as the EU, You are therefore forced to conclude that the stone (Jesus) that shall last forever has not arrived on the stage yet! You split the Roman Empire into two parts in spite of what the text actually says. Daniel is clear that these two parts are actually one kingdom. Not two distinct kingdoms. "there shall be a fourth kingdom...It (singular) shall be divided."

But Dan 7 adds one more detail - the 1260 years of dark ages and persecution of the saints between the split - the division of the Romans empire and the final event where God's kingdom is setup.

I'm sure in another 2,000 years you will add the number to 3260 into your parenthetical age. But the fact is Daniel is clear on the timing of things. And here it is important to know some history. You mention the persecution of the saints so lets start there. Chapter 7 not only shows us the 4 kingdoms I mentioned but also the "beast" battle strategy so to speak. "This horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them" -7:21 It is clear the leader of the 4th kingdom (Rome) persecuted God's people. We are given the time of persecution by this leader as Daniel says " For a time, two times, and a half time." which means these are to be added together or the ancient way of saying 3 1/2 years which coincides with what actually happened. Jewish Zealots burned the Roman ruler's palace, slaughtered the garrison, killed the high priest Ananias, and put an end to sacrifices to Caesar. Nero was outraged and declared war against Jerusalem and in February of 67 AD he sent Vespasian starting the Jewish Roman war. By 70 AD the Temple of Jerusalem fell by Vespasian's son Titus and the temple was systematically taken apart. The destruction of the Temple was the end of biblical Judaism. So now let us count the sevens. "Seventy weeks (seventy times seven seasons) are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet and to anoint a most holy. Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one., a prince, there shall be seven weeks (seven times seven seasons). Then for sixty two weeks (sixty two times seven season) it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in trouble time. And after the sixty two weeks (ibid) an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed. And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week (seven season); and for half of the week (three and a half seasons) he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease: and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate until the decree end is poured out on the desolator." Question how long is a shabua? well in Hebrew that term was like using the term dozen, it does not indicate the duration of the sevens. If we consider seven seasons as encompassing seven decades this would mean the duration before the Messiah's arrival would be seven time seven or 49. Thus 490 years. Now the temple must be rebuilt before the Messiahs arrival. In 538 BC Cyrus decreed the building of the temple. Darius issued the second decree in 520 BC. And Artaxerxes decreed the rebuilding of Jerusalem in 457 BC. Taking these sevens as single years we end up in 408 but as decades we go from 457 BC to 32 AD

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So following the weeks provided by Daniel we see the first 7 weeks (49 decades) going from 457 BC to 32 AD. The 62 weeks = 434 years or from 444BC (Nehimiah begins building) to 10 BC the completion of Herods temple and the final week = 7 decades starting at the incarnation and ending at the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and of the Jewish sacrificial system. Leaving the established kingdom of God which Jesus established which in the end destroyed the Roman empire.

 

[BobRyan]

So following the weeks provided by Daniel we see the first 7 weeks (49 decades) going from 457 BC to 32 AD.

The day for a year model does not allow us to count 7 weeks as 49 decades.

There is no "ten years for a day" prophetic principle in the Bible.

1. Numbers 14:34. The Israelites will wander for 40 years in the wilderness, one year for every day spent by the spies in Canaan.
2. Ezekiel 4:5-6. The prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lie on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days, to symbolize the equivalent number of years of punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.
3. Daniel 9:24-27. This is known as the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks. The majority of scholars do understand the passage to refer to 70 "sevens" or "septets" of years—that is, a total of 490 years.

[FONT=&quot]Adam Clarke Commentary[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]
Until a time and times and the dividing of time.
In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, as in Daniel 9:24) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do.
If we knew precisely when the papal power began to exert itself in the antichristian way, then we could at once fix the time of its destruction.
[FONT=&quot]http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=007[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]Jamieson Fausset Brown[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]

The 1260 years of papal misrule in the name of Christ may be represented by three and a half years of open Antichristianity and persecution before the millennium. Witnessing churches may be succeeded by witnessing individuals, the former occupying the longer, the latter the shorter period (Re 11:3). The beginning of the 1260 years is by ELLIOTT set at A.D. 529 or 533, when Justinian's edict acknowledged Pope John II to be head of the Church; by LUTHER, at 606, when Phocas confirmed Justinian's grant. But 752 is the most likely date, when the temporal dominion of the popes began by Pepin's grant to Stephen II (for Zachary, his predecessor's recognition of his title to France), confirmed by Charlemagne. For it was then first that the little horn plucked up three horns, and so became the prolongation of the fourth secular kingdom [NEWTON]. This would bring us down to about A.D. 2000, or the seventh thousand millenary from creation. But CLINTON makes about 1862 the seventh millenary, which may favor the dating from A.D. 529.

[FONT=&quot]http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=007[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]Treasury of Scripture Knowledge[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]a time[/FONT]
That is, three years and a half, or, reckoning thirty days to a month, 1,260 days, equal to the same number of years in prophetic language; which, dated from the decree of Phocas constituting him the supreme head of the church, A.D. 606, terminated in 1866.
[FONT=&quot]4:25,32; 12:7,11,12; Revelation 11:2,3; 12:6,14; 13:5,7[/FONT]




So 69 weeks (day for a year) goes from 457 B.C to 27 AD. And the last week of years from 27A.D. (Baptism of Christ - the anointed one of Daniel 9) to 34 A.D.

Since your claim is that you became Catholic after coming here as a Baptist - I think we can all agree that you did that inspite of this evidence - not because of it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

They predicted 4 world empires starting with Babylon - named as such in Dan 2. Then Medo-Persia - named as such in Dan 8, then Greece - named as such in Dan 8 - then a 4th empire that would later split into 10 divisions (So that would be Rome) - and the prediction in Dan 2 is that the divided Roman empire would try to reunite through wars and through marriage alliances - but it would never come back as it was.

Which means of course - the EU has a limit beyond which it will never go.

You made a large illogical jump which I colored for you. Rome was made up of ten provinces and if you know anything about how Rome operated you know that it mixed itself with barbarian leadership which were always contesting with Rome the city itself. Therefore there is no need to jump illogically 2,000 years into the future and make some allusion to the EU which Daniel didn't even envision in his book. That is pure supposition.

The problem with your interpretation of Daniel 7 is clear. You fail to recognize that Jesus established the Kingdom at his 1st advent.

1. At His first Advent Christ said "my kingdom is NOT of this world".
2. At His first Advent Christ said "IN this world you have trouble".
3. At His first Advent Christ said "the ruler of this world has come and has nothing in me."
4. The Apostles refer to Satan as "The god of this world" in 2 Cor 4:4 long AFTER the ascension of Christ.
5. In Matt 23 Christ said that his followers would be persecuted , and killed after He left.
6. In Matt 4 Satan says to Christ that the world is HIS and he gives it to whomever he wishes.
7. To this day - we as Christians continue to pray the hope and request "THY kingdom come - Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven".
8. Romans 8 the entire creation groans and so also do the saints - waiting for and hoping for the coming of Christ.
9. 1Peter 1:11-13 Peter tells us to "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ".

There is not a single text of the NT that says that the kingdom of God has come and has wiped out all the other kingdoms of earth - crushing them into bits.

I think we both know that.

And furthermore - in Dan 7 - we are told that before the 1260 years of dark ages persecution - the 11 horn would arise from within the divided Roman empire and uproot 3 of the ten - and then would begin the 1260 years of dark ages persecution. And of course Papal Rome does exactly that.


And in Rev 19 we see the 2nd coming depicted with Christ crushing all the armies of this world AND with "the REST slain by the sword that comes from His mouth" which is the WORD just as Daniel describes in Dan 2.

Dan 2
. 42 As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.
43 And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.
44 In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.


In Dan 7 all persecution of the saints ends with the setting up of that Kingdom.

Is it your claim that this is all just amazing coincidence and as a favor to Rome we should just ignore it???


Since your claim is that you became Catholic after coming here as a Baptist - I think we can all agree that you did that in spite of this evidence - not because of it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But Dan 7 adds one more detail - the 1260 years of dark ages and persecution of the saints between the split - the division of the Romans empire and the final event where God's kingdom is setup.

But the fact is Daniel is clear on the timing of things. And here it is important to know some history. You mention the persecution of the saints so lets start there. Chapter 7 not only shows us the 4 kingdoms I mentioned but also the "beast" battle strategy so to speak. "This horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them" -7:21 It is clear the leader of the 4th kingdom (Rome) persecuted God's people.

Not so. In Daniel 7 Rome divides into 10 kingdoms and then an 11th kingdom arises and destroys 3 of the original ten into which it divided.

See the Dan 7 listing here to see how those remaining 7 divisions map to the nations of Europe today.
http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre17hdan07.html

We are given the time of persecution by this leader as Daniel says " For a time, two times, and a half time." which means these are to be added together or the ancient way of saying 3 1/2 years which coincides with what actually happened.

That is true - but just like Dan 9 - Dan 7 is using the day-for-year model - so you have 1260 years of dark ages persecution beginning in 538 A.D (after the last of the 3 division to be conquered are fallen) and going until 1798 when the Pope is taken captive.

Jewish Zealots burned the Roman ruler's palace, slaughtered the garrison,

Indeed - tragic.

But we are talking about more than 50 million killed over a 1260 year period known as the dark ages - using the same day-for-year principle in Dan 9 (and in Dan 8 as in Dan 7).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The day for a year model does not allow us to count 7 weeks as 49 decades.

Many of Western people over look the fact that the Scriptures were written by Jews. Jews have a distinct method when it comes to numbers. Which is why I initially asked how long is a Shabua? 7 is like 10 that in Hebrew understanding they both signify a whole. So when the term Shabua is used it is like the word dozens. It does not indicate the duration of the sevens. I used the decade model because most of the early church understood the final week as decades not individual years. Which actually makes more sense than adding a parenthetical age in the middle of his vision. And the math works out much better than proposing a false age where your fallacious statement about 50 million people where killed by Catholics in the time you indicated. Nonsense. If that actually happened Europe would be speaking Arabic. That would have wipe out whole populations of Europe at that time and it wouldn't have been able to push back Islamic migration from Turkey or Spain. 50 million is an extreme exaggeration. So seeing the premise of Adding your fake parenthetical age begins with bad facts. And it doesn't make sense that Daniel who is waiting the 1st Advent of Jesus Christ would worry about Europe during the Dark Ages. He is in captivity and he is concerned about his people the Jews who look like at his time have no future. Thus this is primarily about them and the coming of the Son of Man with his Kingdom. Your commentary quotes are faulted in that they don't adequately review Jewish use of numbers as symbols and rely off a total modern review of OT passage ignoring the long Jewish tradition of their use. Which is reflected in the scriptures.

So now when we understand that the Jews use numbers symbolically, the first error I believe you make is the assumption that all of the sevens signify years. Which causes you to insert a gap in the middle of verse 26. Now Daniel states the purpose of these seventy weeks is to bestow blessings. "To finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both prophet and vision, and to anoint a most holy." It seems clear each of these items point to Jesus at his first advent. Unless you want to say Jesus wasn't the anointed at his first advent which is what you would have to conclude by splitting up the years as you do. Again I have to mention another error you have in your count of years. Which is based on another assumption. You added another kingdom. There are only 4 kingdoms which Daniel speaks about and Rome was made up of 10 provinces. And while it existed it was a divided kingdom because of the mix rule unlike the kingdoms before which didn't allow for such mixed rule.
So let me quote my commentaries

The day when Christ was born...eternal righteousness was revealed, and the Saint of Saints was anointed, namely Christ, and the vision and the prophesy were sealed, and those sins were remitted which are allowed...it was because the prophesy was fulfilled by his advent that the vision was confirmed by a seal; and it was called a prophesy because Christ Himself is the seal of prophets, fulfilling as he did all that the prophets had previously declared concerning him. _ Tertullian

There is no doubt (that Daniels prophesy) constitutes a prediction of Christ's advent, for he appeared to the world at the end of the seventy weeks. After him the crimes were consummated, and sin reached its end, and iniquity was destroyed. An eternal righteousness also was proclaimed which overcame the mere righteousness of the Law; and the vision and the prophesy were fulfilled, inasmuch as the Law and the prophet endured until the time of John the Baptist, and then the Saint of saints was anointed. And all these things were the objects of hope, prior to Christ's incarnation, rather than actual possession. - Julius Africanus

and more to the point

At the end of the age. Christ will not need to be anointed or put to death in order that this prophesy of Daniel may then be expected to be fulfilled - St. Augustine

One final problem with your view. Why would God allow a resumption of animal sacrifices in light of his Son's final Sacrifice?

 

[BobRyan]

The day for a year model does not allow us to count 7 weeks as 49 decades.

There is no "ten years for a day" prophetic principle in the Bible.

1. Numbers 14:34. The Israelites will wander for 40 years in the wilderness, one year for every day spent by the spies in Canaan.
2. Ezekiel 4:5-6. The prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lie on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days, to symbolize the equivalent number of years of punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.
3. Daniel 9:24-27. This is known as the Prophecy of Seventy Weeks. The majority of scholars do understand the passage to refer to 70 "sevens" or "septets" of years—that is, a total of 490 years.

[FONT=&quot]Adam Clarke Commentary[/FONT][FONT=&quot] –[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Dan 7:25[/FONT]
Until a time and times and the dividing of time.
In prophetic language a time signifies a year; and a prophetic year has a year for each day. Three years and a half (a day standing for a year, as in Daniel 9:24) will amount to one thousand two hundred and sixty years, if we reckon thirty days to each month, as the Jews do.
If we knew precisely when the papal power began to exert itself in the antichristian way, then we could at once fix the time of its destruction.
[FONT=&quot]http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/vi...da&chapter=007[/FONT]


So 69 weeks (day for a year) goes from 457 B.C to 27 AD. And the last week of years from 27A.D. (Baptism of Christ - the anointed one of Daniel 9) to 34 A.D.

Since your claim is that you became Catholic after coming here as a Baptist - I think we can all agree that you did that inspite of this evidence - not because of it.

Many of Western people over look the fact that the Scriptures were written by Jews. Jews have a distinct method when it comes to numbers. Which is why I initially asked how long is a Shabua? 7 is like 10 that in Hebrew understanding they both signify a whole.

But they are not intertchangable - details matter in this case. I think we can both agree on that.

So when the term Shabua is used it is like the word dozens. It does not indicate the duration of the sevens. I used the decade model because most of the early church understood the final week as decades not individual years.

That is called eisegesis. You are inserting another meaning into the text that neither Daniel nor his readers would have used - instead of simply letting the apparent and more direct reading be taken as is.

As I said in my prior post - I doubt that this idea of not taking the text as it reads - would have actually been appealing to you as a Baptist prior to choosing to join the Catholic church.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Which actually makes more sense than adding a parenthetical age in the middle of his vision.

The timeline Daniel gives in Dan 7 is directly applicable to the little horn activity. And in Daniel 9 - in the same way we simply accept that the 490 years from the decree to rebuild the city - happens map very well to the 490 days of the 70 week prophecy of Dan 9.

And it agrees perfectly with the precedent of day-for-year already used prior to Daniel's text - and so known to both Daniel and his readers.

1. Numbers 14:34. The Israelites will wander for 40 years in the wilderness, one year for every day spent by the spies in Canaan.
2. Ezekiel 4:5-6. The prophet Ezekiel is commanded to lie on his left side for 390 days, followed by his right side for 40 days, to symbolize the equivalent number of years of punishment on Israel and Judah respectively.

the math works out much better than the fallacious idea of inserting 10 years for every day in the 490 day-for-year timeline of Dan 9.

All we are doing with the Dan 7 timeline that includes the same day-for-year 1260 year timeline maps perfectly to the dark ages and persecution of the saints.

If you had thought about this as a Baptist prior to choosing to join the Catholic church you may well have noticed that in terms of major world events like the Empires of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome - the 1260 years of the dark ages - fits in very well as a large scale element in that Daniel 7 vision.

As for the 25 million that Benedict admitted to as being about 1/3 of the real number - I think 50 million is then - a generous half-way point to the actual 75 million that Benedict seemed to be indicating.

And it doesn't make sense that Daniel who is waiting the 1st Advent of Jesus Christ would worry about Europe during the Dark Ages. He is in captivity and he is concerned about his people the Jews who look like at his time have no future. Thus this is primarily about them and the coming of the Son of Man with his Kingdom.

Daniel is not in charge of the vision. God is. And God knows how it all ends up. Thus Daniel is shown 4 major world empires - followed by a period of dark ages persecution that is 1260 years in length.

Turns out - that is exactly what we see in actual history. So it is really not too hard given our hindsight to notice how it maps perfectly.

As for the Jews - notice that even in Acts 1 - the disciples are still blending the first coming and second coming. Christ has to remind them that the long gap is ahead. As does Paul in 2Thess2 telling the first century saints that a gap is ahead and a great falling away - a great dark ages of apostasy is coming up.

Your commentary quotes are faulted in that they don't adequately review Jewish use of numbers as symbols

7 days in a real week - starting in Genesis 1-2.

12 tribes in Genesis.

70 years in Dan 9:1-5 that are "Real" 70 years.

your model seems to hope for inaccuracy when example after example in the Hebrew text is accuracy.

Again - I don't think you would have had this problem as a Baptist. I think you would have had to leave the Baptist church in spite of this information not because of it.

There are only 4 kingdoms which Daniel speaks about and Rome was made up of 10 provinces.

Not entirely accurate.

Notice Dan 7

23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
24As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.

your interpretation above - simply ignores the details in the text that say "Out of this kingdom (pagan Rome the 4th empire) TEN Kings WILL arise.

Just as the Greek empire is seen to divide up into 4 sections in Dan 8 - so the Roman empire is said to divide up.

it does not say "the 4th kingdom is composed of ten kings, ten kingdoms etc" Rather the Ten kings "arise" from out of the 4th empire.

This point is actually in the text itself.

The idea you are suggesting merely finds this to be an inconvenient detail left in the text that does not fit your preference.


Here - again you would not have had this problem with the text in your former Baptist POV.

in Christ,

Bob