Daniel 9:24-27

[Calvibaptist]

I have some questions regarding this passage. I have always come at it from a Dispensational perspective. In fact, one of the things that has kept me from leaving Dispensationalism altogether has been the neat fit of Daniel 9 into all the Dispy charts.

I created this thread because this passage came up on the thread about the second temple and I didn't want to change that into a Dispy-Covenant debate. I'd rather have that here!

I basically have a few questions:

1) What are the various interpretations of this passage (Post-Trib, Post-Mil, A-Mil, etc.)?

2) Who is the "he" in verse 27 and what is the "covenant" and what is the "one week"?

3) How does this passage relate to what Jesus said in Matthew 24:15?

That's it for now. I look forward to learning from your responses.

 

[Bill Brown]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
I have some questions regarding this passage. I have always come at it from a Dispensational perspective. In fact, one of the things that has kept me from leaving Dispensationalism altogether has been the neat fit of Daniel 9 into all the Dispy charts.

I created this thread because this passage came up on the thread about the second temple and I didn't want to change that into a Dispy-Covenant debate. I'd rather have that here!

I basically have a few questions:

1) What are the various interpretations of this passage (Post-Trib, Post-Mil, A-Mil, etc.)?

2) Who is the "he" in verse 27 and what is the "covenant" and what is the "one week"?

3) How does this passage relate to what Jesus said in Matthew 24:15?

That's it for now. I look forward to learning from your responses.

I have no answers at present. I am only acquainted with the dispensational view of Daniel 9. I owe it to myself to study some Covenant views of the passage.

 

[Me4Him]

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
1. to finish the transgression,
2. and to make an end of sins,
3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
6. and to anoint the most Holy.

"Spiritually", these have already been fulfilled, Jesus's second coming will fulfil them "literally".

1.to finish the transgression
Colossians 2 14,
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

2. and to make an end of sins,
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity.
Second Corinthians 5 19,
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,

4.and to bring in everlasting righteousness.
Ephesians 4 30,
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God,
whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy
John 1 41,
We have found the Messiah, which is, being interpreted, the Christ

6. and to anoint the most Holy.
Act 10 38,
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall

be seven weeks,
and threescore and two weeks:
the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Seven weeks, 49 years, Nehemiah started the temple, but Iron tools aren't allowed "on site" so cutting the foundation stones isn't consider part of building the temple, that required three years, the remaining 46 years was considered as building.

Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

Sixty and two weeks, 434 years later Jesus appeared, 49+434=483 years total.

One week, 7 years remaining. (trib period)

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

1. Messiah be cut off = Jesus crucified

2. people of the prince = People of the AC/Satan

3. destroy the city = Rome/Jerusalem 70 AD

Mt 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And HE (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: (pre trib rapture, Lamb's marriage supper)

Re 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. (Jesus/Church)

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them (Jews) that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.


and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, (Abomination of desolation)

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

Quote:
"Seven weeks, 49 years, Nehemiah started the temple, but Iron tools aren't allowed "on site" so cutting the foundation stones isn't consider part of building the temple, that required three years, the remaining 46 years was considered as building".
_______________________________________________

Nehemiah didn't start the building of the Temple.
The 70 Sevens began at BC 445. The Temple was
finished in BC 515, 70 years before the start
of Daniel's 70 Sevens.

God dealt with Israel in sets of 70 years. It was 70 years from the destruction of the first
temple to the dedication of the second temple
and 70 years more until Nehemiah began the
rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem.

But 69 of the 70 sets of seven were fulfilled
on the basis of a 360-day annual countdown.
That's the only way you can get 483 years out
of 476 from BC 445 to AD 32 (445-1=444+32).

The 70th set of Seven must likewise be fulfilled
in multiples of 30-day months. That is indicated
by Dan.12:11 (where 1290 is 43 thirty-day months)
and by Rev.11:2-3 where 42 thirty-day months are
1260 days.

Obviously, therefore, Jesus knew that 30 days
would be cut from the 1290 days. But He said He
did not know the exact Day of His coming except
that it would be "one of the (3 1/2) days after
the great tribulation is cut short". Mark 13:24; Matt.24:22.

The Day He comes will be the Feast of Tabernacles
which could be one or two days before a full
moon or one or two days after a full moon OR on
the day/night of the full moon.

As I see the intent of Jesus' remarks, the unknown last day depends on what only the Father knows, i.e., the day the last Martyr is killed.
Revelation verifies this by revealing that "time will be no longer" subject to a countdown and the
last day will occur "in the (3 1/2) days whenever
the 7th Trumpet is about to sound". Rev.10:6-7.

The Two Prophets will be killed on day #1260;
but no one knows on which of the following 3 1/2
days they will rise up for the Drama in heaven
which includes the 7th Trumpet on the Last Day.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
Me4Him,


Nehemiah didn't start the building of the Temple.
The 70 Sevens began at BC 445. The Temple was
finished in BC 515, 70 years before the start
of Daniel's 70 Sevens.

There's been some disagreement about the exact date and exact person who issued the decree to rebuild Jerusalem/Temple, Cyrus was prophesied by Jeremiah some 350 years prior to issue the decree, but many place the date with the decree issued by Artaxerxes.

2Ch 36:22 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

23 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.

Ne 2:1 And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence.

Ne 2:5 And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it.

6 And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time.

I really don't care one way or the other who issued the decree or when, Cyrus was prophesied, but prophecy was fulfilled regardless, I'm more interested in the present/future than history.

The Day He comes will be the Feast of Tabernacles
which could be one or two days before a full
moon or one or two days after a full moon OR on
the day/night of the full moon.
Mel Miller

The "Feast of trumpets" corresponds to the rapture of the church. (1-10 day of 7th month, Sept-Oct)

This is the Jewish New year which begins on the "New "MOON"=(assemble of God's people) and doesn't "officially" begin until "Two Witnesses" bear witness to the "New Moon" before the sanhedren,

wheeee, all types of "symbolism" in this one.

The "feast of Tabernacles" corresponds to Jesus second coming, the First Resurrection, to start the MK, or tabernacling (living) with God for a 1000 years.

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

You keep referring to the decree to rebuild
the Temple as the starting point for the 70
Sevens of Daniel 9.

The decree was to rebuild the walls of the
City 70 years after the 2nd temple was built.

You also refer to the Feast of Trumpets as
lasting 10 days. It continues to the 15th
day of Tishri for the Feast of Tabernacles.

On that Day the Resurrection and Rapture of all the Saints occurs according to Zech.14:5-9 and
Rev.11:15-18, the very Day Christ comes with all the saints and stands on the Mt. of Olives while the Beast's armies disintegrate in their tracks.

The Feast of Tabernacles coincides with the
Day Christ comes as King of the entire earth.
It is the Day of Ingathering of all the holy
ones at the 7th Trump, the Last Trump, the
great Trump that sounds to "send the angels to gather the Elect out of the 4 winds from all
the extremities of the heavens". Matt.24:31.

The gathering occurs on one of the 3 1/2 days
after the great tribulation ends. On that day
Christ is crowned King of kings. Rev.11:15-18.

It is the "appointed (karios) time to judge the dead in Christ (requiring the resurrection) and to reward the prophets and Saints and all who fear God" (requiring the gathering of all the saints from earth to heaven and then their gathering out of all extremities of the heavens unto Jesus". Rev.11:18; 2 Thess.2:1.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
Me4Him,

You keep referring to the decree to rebuild
the Temple as the starting point for the 70
Sevens of Daniel 9.

The decree was to rebuild the walls of the
City 70 years after the 2nd temple was built.

Da 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Yep, I sure do.

You also refer to the Feast of Trumpets as
lasting 10 days. It continues to the 15th
day of Tishri for the Feast of Tabernacles.

Le 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

26 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement:

You forgot about the "day of atonement" (10-15)between the trumpet/tabernacle.


Le 23:34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles

On that Day the Resurrection and Rapture of all the Saints occurs according to Zech.14:5-9 and
Rev.11:15-18, the very Day Christ comes with all the saints and stands on the Mt. of Olives while the Beast's armies disintegrate in their tracks.

The Feast of Tabernacles coincides with the
Day Christ comes as King of the entire earth.
It is the Day of Ingathering of all the holy
ones at the 7th Trump, the Last Trump, the
great Trump that sounds to "send the angels to gather the Elect out of the 4 winds from all
the extremities of the heavens". Matt.24:31.

The gathering occurs on one of the 3 1/2 days
after the great tribulation ends. On that day
Christ is crowned King of kings. Rev.11:15-18.

It is the "appointed (karios) time to judge the dead in Christ (requiring the resurrection) and to reward the prophets and Saints and all who fear God" (requiring the gathering of all the saints from earth to heaven and then their gathering out of all extremities of the heavens unto Jesus". Rev.11:18; 2 Thess.2:1.

Mel Miller

I agree, All the saved up to this point in time will be with Jesus, both resurrected and survivors of the trib, The "BEMA SEAT" judgment for "rewards", unsaved (tares) will be cast into hell to await judgment at the GWT.

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

If you are indeed more interested in the future than in history, why stress the importance of the Day of Atonement which is history; not at all to be anticipated as part of the final
“Feast of Tabernacles”!!

Your quotes:
_________________________________________________"I'm more interested in the present/future than history”.

Like you referenced, “the first day of the month is a memorial”! Lev.23:24.

And you reminded me that I “forgot about the "day of atonement" (10-15) between the trumpet/tabernacle”.
_______________________________________________
The Day of Atonement is history. The final Feast of Trumpets, prophetically, does not call for the Day of Atonement. It calls for the glorious return of the Messiah!

The final Feast of Trumpets includes the Feast of Tabernacles and applies to the Day Christ is revealed from heaven. It's the only unfulfilled prophetic aspect to which the Feast of Trumpets applies!

My friend, you need to get out of its historical reference to the Day of Atonement which no longer applies from a prophetic viewpoint!

Your observation that “The "Feast of trumpets" corresponds to the rapture of the church (1-10 day of 7th month, Sept-Oct)" is historical and
fails to include the Ingathering Harvest of
all the Saved at the Feast of Tabernacles.

Only at the Feast of Tabernacles will Christ “send the angels to gather all the
saints unto Himself at the great trumpet sound of Matt.24:31"!

Again, the Two Prophets, which you assume will “bear witness to the `New Moon’ before the sanhedren” will be dead for up to 3½ days before the 7th Trump sounds that the “appointed time has come to judge the dead and reward saints”.

You have the dead in Christ “judged before the 7th Trumpet sounds”. That is totally contrary to the teaching of Jesus that “He will gather the elect from earth to heaven in the days after the great tribulation”. Mark 13:24-27.

You can only seem to say, “This is the Jewish New year which begins on the `New MOON'
= (assemble of God's people) and doesn't `officially' begin until `Two Witnesses' bear
witness to the `New Moon' before the sanhedren”.

I respectfully submit that you are emphasizing unbelieving Israel’s concept of the Feast of
Trumpets and missing the prophetic concept of the Day of the Lord and our resurrection/rapture
on the "last day". John 6:38-40,44,54.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

There are "Two" feast that required a "blood Sacrifice", "Passover", "Day of atonement".

Jesus, as the "passover lamb" only protected the "Firstborn" from death, the church, being the body of christ and "firstborn, will "literally".."Passover".. the coming "day of atonement" through the rapture.

The "Day of Atonement", a "goat" (represents body of sin) was sacrificed and the "National sins" were placed on the "HEAD" of a "Scapegoat" (Jesus)which was sent out into the wilderness, when it died, their sins were forgiven.

The church sacrifices their "Goat" when the "old man" is crucified.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin (goat) might be destroyed,

In making "Atonement" for rejecting Jesus, Israel will "literallY" sacrifice their "body" to be saved, while placing the national sins on the head of the "Scapegoat", Jesus.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Jesus suffer the "Stripes" of chastisement in his flesh for believers, this is why the church is only "Spiritually" crucified,

Israel's will suffer those "Stripes" in their flesh, for rejecting Jesus, and will "literally" be crucified.

God uses Satan/AC as a "ROD" to chastise Israel, Moses "ROD" turned into a "serpent" when "cast down to the earth", and so does God's rod.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Jesus only rapture the "Firstborn" or church believers, National Israel is gather at his second coming. (Wheat/Tare separation)

Most everyone knows "WHAT" happens in scripture, but few know "WHY" it happens, and until that's known, you really don't understand it, and don't forget the "Symbols" and what they represent.

You can find more about this here.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

Your Quote deserves to be Given Top Honors:
_________________________________________________
"Most everyone knows "WHAT" happens in scripture, but few know "WHY" it happens, and until that's known, you really don't understand it, and don't forget the `Symbols' and what they represent".
________________________________________________

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[genesis12]

Wow. Now, with regard to the OP. I don't need to tell you the dispensational view (that I hold). You're very aware of that. I guess all I can say at this point is that the classic dispensational view is correct.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by genesis12:
Wow. Now, with regard to the OP. I don't need to tell you the dispensational view (that I hold). You're very aware of that. I guess all I can say at this point is that the classic dispensational view is correct.

Yes Sir, it is, Jesus/church/rapture was a mystery not revealed to Israel in the OT,

It's a "Dispensation" inserted into the pages of the OT that is quite different than the OT.

"Clues" about it are there, but only "clues".

Ho 6:2 After two days (5th,6th) will he revive us: in the third day (7th) he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

 

[Mel Miller]

Your chart on the only remaining Feast to be prophetically fulfilled is fictitious:

Quote:
_______________________________________________
"However, Those who have been saved and indwelled by the Holy Ghost, will begin the Feast of Tabernacle “seven days” or “one week” (trib period) prior to the actual beginning here on earth".
________________________________________________

Your chart fails to show 7 days (years) between your so-called time for the "assembly" (Rapture) on the first day of the 7th Month of Tishri.

There are 14 days between the "Assembly" at the "New Moon" (Feast of Trumpets) and the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles on Tishri 15.

You have not yet understood the "exact" number of days between the Feast of Trumpets and Feast of Tabernacles. You have interpreted 14 days as a period of 7 years of feasting in heaven prior to the Feast of Tabernacles on the 15th Day of Tishri.

Furthermore, there is no prophetic fulfillment
of the Day of Rosh Hashanah (Tishri 1) as the day of Rapture nor for the Day of Atonement on the 10th as being "passed over". IMO, this is a so-called theoritical substitution of 7 years between the first and 15th day of Tishri that has no Scriptural support in the interpretation of Dan.9 ... the subject that was intended by
Calvibaptist for discussion at the start.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

The "feast" show a "pattern" of events in the NT, and the "rituals" also explain those events.

As the "PASSOVER" lamb, the "blood" only protected the "Firstborn" from "death", Jesus is the "firstborn", and being the "body of Christ" (Church/Believers) we too are the only ones protected from the "Death" of the tribulation period, we're "pre trib rapture" and therefore
"literally"..."PASSOVER" the trib.

Or you can say, Jesus comes only for his bride, the Church of Believers.

Scroll up and look at the feast chart, you'll see this.

Now you know why God called it "PASSOVER".

The "day of atonement" (trib) all except a "remnant" will literlly die to be saved, it's from this death the "passover Lamb" protects us.

Jesus has already suffer our stripe in his flesh, Israel will suffer stripe in their flesh from the AC as Chastisement from God for rejecting Jesus, in the day of atonement, Jesus is represented by the "Scapegoat", not the passover lamb.

Don't forget the "trinity".

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

Maybe only a "few" understand the truth as you see it is because you don't give scripture to
support your charts.

Your Quote:
_______________________________________________
"However, Those who have been saved and indwelled by the Holy Ghost, will begin the Feast of Tabernacle “seven days” or “one week” (trib period) prior to the actual beginning here on earth".
________________________________________________

Your chart fails to show 7 days (years) between your so-called time for the "assembly" (Rapture) on the first day of the 7th Month of Tishri.

There are 14 days between the "Assembly" at the "New Moon" (Feast of Trumpets) and the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles on Tishri 15.

So how do you get just seven days? And what
Scripture means 7 days equals 7 years????????

You have not yet understood the "exact" number of days between the Feast of Trumpets which continues for 15 days and Feast of Tabernacles.

You have interpreted 14 days as a period of 7 years of feasting in heaven prior to the Feast of Tabernacles on the 15th Day of Tishri. How
can you get seven years in heaven out of 14 days on earth???????????????????????????????????????

Furthermore, there is no prophetic fulfillment
of the Day of Rosh Hashanah (Tishri 1) as the day of Assembly (Rapture); nor for the Day of Atonement on the 10th as being "passed over".

IMO, you equate a so-called theoritical substitution to force 14 days to represent 7 years between the first and 15th day of Tishri.

This has no Scriptural support for the interpretation of Dan.9 ... the subject that was intended by Calvibaptist for discussion at the start.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
Me4Him,

Maybe only a "few" understand the truth as you see it is because you don't give scripture to
support your charts.


Mel Miller www.lastday.net

It's all "spelled out" in the following link.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html