Debate for "Beliefs on Baptism."

[Darron Steele]

In the Christian fellowship area of the board, I posted a poll on beliefs about baptism. It was to correct a mischaracterization common in `baptismal regeneration' denominations that is made about other Christians.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=31991

Despite the express purpose of the thread, some have decided that they want to argue, and my last post trying to keep this from happening is here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=904485&postcount=17
Hence, I am creating this thread for people who are bound and determined they want to argue, in hopes they will do it here instead of over there.

 

[Darron Steele]

Original Post There.

To all, many in churches which believe in salvation only upon completed baptism characterize those who disagree with them as so: `They do not believe in baptism' or `They don't believe they have to be baptized at all.'

This is a mischaracterization. Hence, I am creating a poll to demonstrate that most believe that baptism is commanded, but not for salvation.

I am not really interested in arguing with anyone. I am interested in correcting a common mischaracterization with numbers. I would prefer that everyone just vote, hence my placing it here.

The four options were
1) "Baptism is NOT linked to salvation's cause, but still commanded."
2) "Baptism is a specific fruit of any faith that saves us beforehand."
3) "We are NOT saved until completed baptism."
4) "Baptism is entirely optional."

Number 1 is common Evangelical teaching. The belief is that even if a person refuses to be baptized when s/he could be, s/he could still be saved; s/he just committed a normal sin. Such people may or may not be baptized.
Number 2 is a view not held by many, although some do suspect it both in Baptist circles and in the Restoration denominations. This is the belief that a person who truly believes the Gospel and that Jesus Christ is Lord is a person who would be baptized if ignorance or lack of opportunity did not prevent it. Barring extenuating circumstances, such people are always baptized. However, they were saved before they even entered the water.
Number 3 is the common view of the Churches of Christ. This is the belief that until one arises from the water, s/he is unsaved -- period.
Number 4 is a view not held by many. This is the belief that one is not even sinning when s/he evades baptism.

 

[BobRyan]

I vote for the second option - and agree that Baptism is not what saves -- but it is "the obedience of the gospel" as Paul calls it - the "fruit of salvation" as Christ calls it in Matt 7.

And those who reject obedience right at the start - as John says in 1John 2 have lied about who they claim to truly know.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[J. Jump]

Darron I thnk before one can can look at baptism and decide what impact it has on salvation if any at all there needs to be an understanding of what Biblical salvation is.

With that being said I do not think the Bible teaches that baptism has any impact at all on a person's eternal (spiritual) salvation. However it does impact ones salvation for the kingdom or as the Bible describes it the salvation of the soul.

 

[tragic_pizza]

There's another view not listed.

Baptism is a covenental act. This view is held by Reformed tradition.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

There's another view not listed.

Baptism is a covenental act. This view is held by Reformed tradition.

Not "by Reformed tradition", but a Reformed understanding of the Scriptures (covenant theology). TP -- be careful, if you use the word "tradition" everyone thinks you are a Romanist.

This belief is held by all reformed denominations, including Presbyterians, Lutherans, Dutch Reform, Reform Christians. I'm not sure about Episcopalians and Anglicans on this though.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Not "by Reformed tradition", but a Reformed understanding of the Scriptures (covenant theology). TP -- be careful, if you use the word "tradition" everyone thinks you are a Romanist.

This belief is held by all reformed denominations, including Presbyterians, Lutherans, Dutch Reform, Reform Christians. I'm not sure about Episcopalians and Anglicans on this though.

Thanks, FoS; I was grasping for the right phrase and couldn't get there.

I think that Episcopalians and Aglicans view baptism in the same light as the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Thanks, FoS; I was grasping for the right phrase and couldn't get there.

I think that Episcopalians and Aglicans view baptism in the same light as the Roman Catholic Church.

I checked the US Episcopal website and their view is a lot more reformed than I thought. See http://www.episcopalchurch.org/visitors_11674_ENG_HTM.htm for more information.

 

[Jim1999]

The Church of England (Anglicans) have differing views on the meaning of baptism. Traditionally, they believed that infant baptism washed away original sin, and hence the reason for immediate baptism, within days of being born. Others follow the Reformed concept of covenant theology, where it aligns with circumcision, a covenant promise to bring up the child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, leading to Confirmation, when the novitiate is brought to a saving realization of the Christ.

Whilst the Church of England was born out of the RC Church, it was definitely a separate assemblage of evangelical and fundamental beliefs. I was raised in such a church and came to a realization of the Christ and salvation within the Church of England. I became a Baptist by conviction at a later date.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Darron Steele]

Darron I thnk before one can can look at baptism and decide what impact it has on salvation if any at all there needs to be an understanding of what Biblical salvation is.

With that being said I do not think the Bible teaches that baptism has any impact at all on a person's eternal (spiritual) salvation. However it does impact ones salvation for the kingdom or as the Bible describes it the salvation of the soul.

J. Jump, we are either saved or we are not from what I see in Scripture. From what I read in Scripture, when we die, we all go to one of two destinations for eternity: His kingdom or somewhere much less pleasant. Those of us who are saved have our physical bodies replaced with incorruptible ones, but I see no evidence that we cease to be the same people otherwise.

 

[Darron Steele]

Chemnitz posted this in the other thread after I started this one. I think it belongs over here.

I am going to vote for the fifth option since none of the given options were correct. Baptism is not a command, it is a means by which God has promised to make new disciples. As it is described in the Letter to the Romans in Baptism we are joined to Christ in his death and resurrection by means of Baptism. It is also as Peter describes it a washing not of dirt but a cleansing from sin, similar to the flood.

The question was "Which best describes your belief on baptism as the Bible teaches?" Rather than abstain from participating as was his option, he described something that looks closest to option 3.

 

[Chemnitz]

There were no best options. They were all wrong and what I said is not even close to option three. You claim to have started that poll to correct mischaracterizing the beliefs of the baptists and then you mischaracterize the Biblical position.

 

[hillclimber1]

None apply
Point 5:
Baptism by the Holy Spirit occurs at the time of conversion. Water has absolutely nothing to do with it today. The Lords words Acts 1:5

But for the next year, the apostles continue to baptize and greatly expand the Church, and Christ stands ready to come back to rule and reign. But after that year is up, at the conclusion of the stoning of Stephen, Acts7: 55 the Lord sits down at the Father's right hand, because Israel has ultimately rejected their Messiah. At this point the new "Age of Grace" previously unknown except by the Father, is begun. And these old sign gifts begin to fade away completely. See Acts 11:14. These folks are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and had not been baptized. Though Peter immediately baptizes them, according to his tradition.

Paul tells us, he is glad he baptized only a few.

The whole Baptist religious movement is based upon Israelis promised Kingdom gospel, which has been set-aside for these last 2,000 years, and will be taken up again in the millennial Reign of Christ. We, the members of the Body of Christ, will have been raptured by this time.

 

[J. Jump]

The whole Baptist religious movement is based upon Israelis promised Kingdom gospel

Hill Climber can you expound on what you mean by this quote?

 

[Darron Steele]

None apply
Point 5:
Baptism by the Holy Spirit occurs at the time of conversion. Water has absolutely nothing to do with it today. The Lords words Acts 1:5

But for the next year, the apostles continue to baptize and greatly expand the Church, and Christ stands ready to come back to rule and reign. But after that year is up, at the conclusion of the stoning of Stephen, Acts7: 55 the Lord sits down at the Father's right hand, because Israel has ultimately rejected their Messiah. At this point the new "Age of Grace" previously unknown except by the Father, is begun. And these old sign gifts begin to fade away completely. See Acts 11:14. These folks are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and had not been baptized. Though Peter immediately baptizes them, according to his tradition.

Paul tells us, he is glad he baptized only a few.

The whole Baptist religious movement is based upon Israelis promised Kingdom gospel, which has been set-aside for these last 2,000 years, and will be taken up again in the millennial Reign of Christ. We, the members of the Body of Christ, will have been raptured by this time.

Looks like your position is that in the period of Acts 11:14, option #1 was the case.

Your position for the present time is closest to option 4.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

There were no best options. They were all wrong and what I said is not even close to option three. You claim to have started that poll to correct mischaracterizing the beliefs of the baptists and then you mischaracterize the Biblical position.

Wouldn't the Lutheran position mirror the other reformed denomations?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Chemnitz:
"it is described in the Letter to the Romans in Baptism we are joined to Christ in his death and resurrection by means of Baptism."

GE:
It is described there, the 'baptism' namely, of Christ through death and resurrection, and how we (through faith), "with Him" through and in, HIS, death and resurrection, are 'co-buried', 'co-raised', and co-baptised. It's ALL, Christ's, and we in Him and through Him. There is no word there (Ro6) of water-baptism or of 'our', baptism. Much the same is said in Colossians 2.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

There's another view not listed.

Baptism is a covenental act. This view is held by Reformed tradition.

GE:
I 'hold' the 'Reformed' view (or 'tradition') of salvation; yet I am a-baptismal (like in a-millennialist). In other words, I don't believe in water-baptism. I believe water-baptism was a sign of Apostleship and Apostolic Authority, meant for those 'twelve' only

 

[hillclimber1]

Looks like your position is that in the period of Acts 11:14, option #1 was the case.

Your position for the present time is closest to option 4.

Option 1 doesn't apply, as it is not commanded today. It is a gift given to each believer at conversion.
Option 4 doesn't apply as there is no option about it. It's automatic. I believe my option 5 is correct.

 

[hillclimber1]

Hill Climber can you expound on what you mean by this quote?

Simply that the term, "Baptist" is not a term that is applicable for todays believer, outside its proper manifestation as a gift given by the Holy Spirit and His indwelling at conversion. It was a specific sign to Israel that their long promised Messiah was near at hand. The fact that this sign has been adopted for a huge group of people today is simply wrong headed. Baptism by human efforts is not only adding nothing to the Holy Spirits work but it can be viewed as actually denying it.