Debating with an unbeliever

[xdisciplex]

If an unbeliever asked you if your belief is the truth or wether it's just your belief then what would you say? If you say that it's the absolutely truth then he will call your narrow-minded because you cannot prove it and you simply think you are right just as many other religions think they are. If you on the other hand say that it's just your belief then he will say: I knew it, it's simply your belief but it's not the truth.
This means no matter what you say you cannot win.
I debated with an unbeliever and he came up with this stuff and then he also said that even what you perceive is not the truth because you create your reality or something like this. Totally strange stuff. This means that even if you saw God it wouldn't be the truth but only your truth....
I didn't know what to say in reply to this. I hate debating, it's so absolutely senseless and only confuses me.

And then he said that only fundamentalists believe such things and condemn all other religions and then I automatically get this strange feeling and think: What if he is right? What if I have become a fundamentalist and I'm far away from reality and don't even notice it? What if I'm not even objective anymore?

 

[Salty]

Back in 1491 Columbus believed the earth was round. But he could not prove it. Was it just his belief? Well at his "second comming" he had the proof.

Thats the best anology I could come up with, this early on a Sat:laugh:

Salty

 

[xdisciplex]

I cannot take it that easily.

After all this is a valid question. Every buddhist,muslim or whatever will tell you that his belief is the TRUTH. But how do you know? How do you know that you have the truth? Muslims will also tell you that they know that they are right.
This is the problem. Does this mean that as a christian you can or should only say that you believe it? Or do you have to say that it is the truth?
But how do you know? How do you know it's the truth? Because you feel that it is the truth? But feelings are relative and personal and you cannot prove them.

 

[donnA]

Your goal is not to win, but state simply what you believe.

 

[xdisciplex]

Your goal is not to win, but state simply what you believe.

oh man,
but how can I convince anybody by losing every argument?
I couldn't win any argument. This is not how you make an impression on people.
When you debate with somebody and cannot show the person that she is wrong then it's senseless and the person even thinks she is right! She will think even more than before that she is right and that christianity is wrong.

 

[BobRyan]

Your goal is not to win, but state simply what you believe.

Well said.

In John 16 we are told that God CONVICTS the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment. One person plants, another waters, another reaps the harvest. You never know which position you are in so it is best to take the Col 4 instruction about praying at all times and THEN in that way having your words seasoned with salt - knowing how to respond to each person.

Unbelievers simply need to see that YOU are convinced and that YOU find REASON to believe. They already know that YOU can not make THEM believe. They just want to know if it is REAL to you and what REAL benefit you WITNESS to in being a Christian - eternal life? New Birth? Fellowship with God??

I like pointing them to the problems in science with simply trusting that rocks, water, and sunlight eventually produce people -- but that line of logic alone is not enough to convert them to Christianity.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: I like pointing them to the problems in science with simply trusting that rocks, water, and sunlight eventually produce people -- but that line of logic alone is not enough to convert them to Christianity.

HP: If you cannot find a Scripture that states it just like you believe or state it, what right do you have to establish truth in such a manner? Just wondering.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: If you cannot find a Scripture that states it just like you believe or state it, what right do you have to establish truth in such a manner? Just wondering.

In Gen 1 I can show that God is the one that creates life AND specifically creates animals AND specifically creates man. So I can "show them" that God has a solution for the "rocks can't make people" problem.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: So I can "show them" that God has a solution for the "rocks can't make people" problem.

HP: Don’t forget to tell them that regardless of the ‘rocks don’t make people’ problem, in the end it all ends up the same for at least the unbeliever according to you. What does it all really matter? All rocks and wicked receive the same end, i.e., annihilation.

 

[Ed Edwards]

xdisciplex:

If an unbeliever asked you if your belief
is the truth or wether it's just your belief then what would
you say? If you say that it's the absolutely truth then
he will call your narrow-minded because you cannot
prove it and you simply think you are right just as many
other religions think they are. If you on the other hand say
that it's just your belief then he will say: I knew it, it's simply
your belief but it's not the truth.
This means no matter what you say you cannot win.

If your assumptions are true (and you haven't even tried to convince
me they are) then it is obvious: don't say anything.
The question is a loaded question, and AS YOU SAY cannot be
answered properly.

BTW, you missed earlier when I told you:

The TRUTH is NOT a statement, a proof, a nifty saying --
the TRUTH is a person: the person Messiah Jesus ben (son of)-oesph
& Son of God.

And then you get confused like this?

Xdisciplex:

And then he said that only fundamentalists
believe such things and condemn all other religions ...

That is easy to prove.
'Fundamentalist' is defined as 'a bigot who condemns
all other religions'.
Yep, proved by definition.
Then

BTW, you missed earlier when I told others:

A short history of the term 'Fundamentalist'.

c 1920 - a 'Fundamentalist' was a member of a movement
within Protestantism which gave emphasis to the basics of
Christianity to the exclusion of all distracting dogma

c 1983 - a 'Fundamentalist' is a member of any movement
within any of the book religions (examples: Christian, Muslim,
Judaism) which gives emphasis to the basics of the
book upon which the religion relies

c 1983 - a 'Fundamentalist' is a bigot of any stripe

I want my word back - the DBP (drive by press) has stole
a perfectly good word from me . I also don't discuss very long
with people who insist on defining my terms in their damnation -
no future in it, none at all.

The fundamentals of traditional fundamentalism
(as specified by Jerry Falwell):

1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
4. the literal resurrection of Christ from the dead
5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent

 

[DQuixote]

c 1920 - a 'Fundamentalist' was a member of a movement
within Protestantism which gave emphasis to the basics of
Christianity to the exclusion of all distracting dogma

Not bad.

I'll revise it for me, in 2007: I am a Christian who, as a conservative fundamentalist, gives emphasis to the basics of my faith in Him, to the exclusion of distracting dogma.

Conservative and fundamental are similar in interpretation. You can ask me what they mean to me, and I will tell you. You can question my interpretation, but that's as far as it will go --- no debate. As a confused atheist psychologist, Fritz Perls once said, "I am not in this world to live up to your expectations" --- something Fritz got right.

I will not debate anyone. I will tell anyone what Truth God through Christ has revealed to me, inspired by the Holy Spirit, not in a forum, not in a concordance, not in a commentary, but through His Word. His Word is Truth. I will not compromise that Truth. On the contrary --- no argument that anyone can advance will sway me from God's Truth. He speaks to me through His infallible Word, that Word that I cherish. Don't bother to ask me how I know it is infallible. It is. Debate over (if one was started), case closed.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DQ: I am a Christian who, as a conservative fundamentalist, gives emphasis to the basics of my faith in Him, to the exclusion of distracting dogma.

HP: You do know that there are only two of us left that believe like that don't you? :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

DQ:

I will not debate anyone. I will tell anyone what Truth God through Christ has revealed to me, inspired by the Holy Spirit, not in a forum, not in a concordance, not in a commentary, but through His Word. His Word is Truth. I will not compromise that Truth. On the contrary --- no argument that anyone can advance will sway me from God's Truth. He speaks to me through His infallible Word, that Word that I cherish. Don't bother to ask me how I know it is infallible. It is. Debate over (if one was started), case closed.

This is how to approach a "debate" with an atheist. No debate at all. Because the truth is, you will never change his mind. You can't. In fact, he already has his mind made up. It is God alone that gets through our thick rebellious heads.
All any of us can do is give our own testimony of how God saved us and changed us. Arguing or debating is pointless.

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I couldn't win any argument.

Methinks you should not be trying to debate anyone until you decide what YOU believe. One confused person cannot convince another confused person they are wrong...

 

[xdisciplex]

But if you simply say that what you believe is the truth simply because you know it and you cannot somehow prove it then you're not any different than a muslim or a buddhist who also claims to absolutely know that he is right. There is no difference at all and this makes you look like a religious freak, a fanatic and this pushes people away. This is exactly the problem.

And after all opinions and perceptions are personal and relative. Let's say a person comes to you and tells you that she saw aliens and that aliens are the truth will you believe her? Of course not! Her testimony will not have any impact on you but you expect an unbeliever to listen to your testimony when you basically say the same thing? You also simply say that YOU know that it's the truth because YOU think it's the truth or because YOU feel that it's the truth but this is all relative.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

XDX: You also simply say that YOU know that it's the truth because YOU think it's the truth or because YOU feel that it's the truth but this is all relative.

HP: The truth may be relative from your individual prospective, but that will only last for a season. We shall all stand before the Creator of Heaven and Earth, and shall give an account for every idle word spoken and every deed done in the flesh. One can believe as they will, even deny to the point of denying God and the judgment, but that too shall pass. In the end, we shall all know the truth, and every knee shall bow, and confess that Jesus is Lord.

Truth is spiritually discerned. Failure to recognize truth and accept it as truth is not due to the relativity of it, but the state of ones heart. Let any man call the truth relative that so desires. There will come a day that it will cease to be relative to them, but it will be too late. As believers, we are to warn those of that day, and admonish them to get their hearts right with God today, to the end that the truth will be revealed to them in a new an eternal way, that they may KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt Christ, His truth, and the power of His resurrection.

The question is not whether or not anyone else knows the truth for what it is, but rather the question is do ‘you’ know that truth, and are you persuaded of it? That is the question. Has the love of God been shed abroad in your heart? Have you repented of your sins that are past and believed in your heart that Jesus died and rose again for your justification, and subsequently received the testimony of the Holy Spirit that your heart is right with God? What about today? Is your conscience clear before God and man and does the Holy Spirit testify to your heart that today your sins are covered by the blood and you are ready to meet Him in judgment? If so, rejoice my friend!! You not only know the truth but have the truth living and reigning within your heart, regardless of all the naysayers that would try to make you believe all truth is relative.

You may be like Noah or Jeremiah, and seemingly never convince anyone else of the truth but possibly some family members around you, but you can know you have found THE TRUTH for yourself!!

 

[BobRyan]

HP: Don’t forget to tell them that regardless of the ‘rocks don’t make people’ problem, in the end it all ends up the same for at least the unbeliever according to you. What does it all really matter? All rocks and wicked receive the same end, i.e., annihilation.

Actually - as it turns out - the ONLY people that "pretend" that just being burned alive and tortured for sins for a FINITE period of time - is "the same as no torment at all" are people still married to the man-made tradition of "infinite torture". They are the ONLY ones depressed by the idea that their loved ones only suffer FINITE torture in the presence of the Lamb, the Angels and the saints. Only "to them" is this wonderful truth from God's Word "a bad thing".

For all unbelievers (and all Christians that DO accept the Teaching of God's Word on FINITE sins - getting FINITE torture) the good news of eternal life but not eternal torture - is actually "a good thing".

Sorry to have to dissappoint you sir.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: For all unbelievers (and all Christians that DO accept the Teaching of God's Word on FINITE sins - getting FINITE torture) the good news of eternal life but not eternal torture - is actually "a good thing".

HP: No BR, it is not our place to decide that an idea unsupported by Scripture or reason is ‘a good thing.’ In this world things that may not ‘seem good’ to us now will be seen through different eyes in eternity, for then we will most certainly have more knowledge and understanding of God than we do not possess in this world. I for one would be careful in telling God that which his Word declares as truth is ‘not good’ and that an idea completely unsupported by the truth of His Word ‘is good.’

Scripture warns us about twisting good and evil to fit our own presuppositions. Who are we to infer or tell God that the testimony of His Word concerning eternal punishment is not good? Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;

 

[billwald]

Debating with a nonbeliever, like debating with a republican or democrat, is fun but accomplishes nothing. "True Believers" are not swayed by argument.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I will debate Scriptures with anyone atheist or not. (I know some great biblical scholars who are atheists; they just don't believe a word of it.)

I will not debate God with anyone.