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Would it be better if I just insisted that the Doctrines of Grace offend my sensiblities?


- man starts off dead in trespasses and sins
- man then sins (its his nature)
- this confirms that man is totally depraved and in bondage to the law of sin and death
- God wants to save the elect
- God issues a UNIVERSAL call
- God grants the elect saving faith
- man chooses Hell (unless God grants saving faith)
- God justifies the ungodly (this leads to sanctification)
- this brings Glory to God

 

God created man as a sinner, & thought "it was good"? C'mon!!

So man is doomed to Hell UNLESS God gives him faith?
Ole Joe wants to believe, but God refuses to allow him to, so he's condemned? Or ole Joe has not the slightest desire to become a believer, but God COULD change that IF He would!
"WHOSOEVER" really means those God decides to save, and not what He really said?

Is this what you're saying?

Three statements of Christ that you are willing to say He really didn't mean??

Just trying to understand your perspective re:God's word!

If God didn'r REALLY mean what He said here, how can I trust the rest of His word as being accurate?

 

- Adam starts off SINLESS and PERFECT and IN HARMONY with God. God pronounces him "GOOD" and God "gets it right" without missing some "hidden Corruption".

- Adam sins and is thereby given a sinFUL nature that is OUT of harmony with God -- it is bent toward sin. Depraved. He also adopts a FALLEN nature with eroding physical defects.

- The children are BORN with that sinFUL nature - with an inner nature OUT of harmony with God and in harmony with SIN. They are SINNERs by NATURE and in need of salvation and a change of nature.
- this makes man totally depraved and in
bondage to the law of sin and death
- God wants to save ALL men
- God issues a UNIVERSAL call- and DRAWS ALL
- God through that call grants man the ability to choose Him. SUPERNATURAL enabling!
- God stands on the OUTSIDE and knocks! Man is ALONE and on the INSIDE is ENABLED to HEAR AND to OPEN the door. He must choose light or darkness.
- man chooses those who reject Hell - those who accept Christ are regenerated - paliggenesia and are at that moment Justified
- They then WALK with Christ (1John 2) and By the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh (Romans 8) this IS the process of sanctification hagiazo. This is also the source of experiential assurance as the Spirit "Bears witness with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God"

 

are we talking about adam or every sinner since adam? The answer is different. I think Monergist was referring to every sinner since Adam, but the Arminians took it as meaning Adam. Clarification would be nice.

 

No, quite clearly, Monergist was talking about verses such as rom 3:10 and 23, Eph 2:1, etc. He is not talking about Adam. I think you probably know that, since you have been around a while. That's why I am confused as to why you would question it.

Right here is where you break down. Ole Joe doesn't want to believe. He is not seeking God. He is dead in sin.

Breakdown again. God doesn't refuse to allow anyone to believe. In fact, the reason you believe (if you do) is because God gave you a new nature.

Whoever means whoever. But there is a modifier ... believes. It is whoever believes. If they don't believe, then they aren't saved. You guys keep wanting to leave that out.

Three statements of Christ that you are willing to say He really didn't mean??</font>[/QUOTE]I don't know any Calvinist who would say that Christ didn't mean those things. I think you have created a straw man.

Really?? It doesn't sound like it. It sounds like you are framing accusations in terms of questions. That is not wrong, but don't say that you are trying to understand a perspective when you are not.

That's a great question. It is a major point why the Bible is true and inerrant in all its parts. It is just out of place here, since we are not questioning whether God really meant what he said.

At some point, you have to accept that the discussion is at a more foundational level that whether he meant what he said. We all agree that he did. Our difference is on what did he actually say.

I wish these conversations would get less combative, more truthful about people's positions, and more gracious. We all need to take a step back and think before we speak. We need to change the tone of this forum.

 

Feel free to use me. I don't care. If you got something seriously wrong, I would correct it. If I ignored you, it would be because I didn't have the time or interest to engage in teh discussion. Don't be so combative.

 

I was following Sularis' lead and referring to every person born since Adam (I don't think he meant to infer that Adam was created corrupt!).

 

Where do I state that Christ did not mean what He said?

1)--whosoever believeth in him should not perish,
The elect believe in him. None of the elect perish. The non-elect do not believe in him. The non-elect perish. Whoseover believes (the elect) in him shall not perish; there is no contradiction here.

2)the world through him might be saved. Christ's atonement is sufficient for all-- but since we are looking for points of agreement here, surely we all agree that it is not efficient for all, unless some here want to embrace the heresy of universalism. Let scripture interpret scripture, clearly this verse is not saying that all are saved.

3)He that believeth on him is not condemned-- If I have disputed this verse then somewhere I must have stated that "He that believeth on Him IS condemned!" Can you show us where I stated that?

 

No problem. I would argue that the person is Justified at the time they come to Christ and are born-again. Sanctification begins there but sanctification is really nothing more than daily justification in the form of "I die daily" 1Cor 15. It is a daily "choosing" to "Walk as Christ walked" 1John 2 and "by the Holy Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh" Romans 8.

The part I differ with - is your claim that humans do not actually "Get total depravity" until they sin. I would argue that the sinful nature itslef is that "total depravity" that mankind is sadled with from birth. The Drawing of God "ENABLES" sinners to choose salvation and the "new birth" creates a new nature within us that occupies our thoughts along with our sinful nature. It is that battle between the two that we see in Romans 7.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[/qb]My point is that you continually talk about "whosoever" without talking as much about "believes." Calvinism refuses to take them separately. Christ promises salvation to "whoever believes." Therefore, Calvinism believes that "whoever believes" will be saved.

Who said anything about God motivates -- self will? And what is the erroneous statement?

You would need to demonstrate this from Scripture. Christ says that the universal calls goes out but "cannot" be heard or understand (cf. John 8 for starters).

No, it's not. I don't disagree that God has chosen some for damnation, such as Pharoah (and you seem to agree ... which seems to blow your whole point). The fact is that God's predestination to salvation is a positive one. The others, he just lets go. I think your error is in thinking that man is neutral, and that apart from God's Predestination to hell he would simply continue neutral. Man however is a sinner. If God does nothing at all (never predestines, elects, etc), then man goes to hell. In election to salvation, God lets the non-elect do what they want to do and end up where their choices end up.

 

OK Larry, I'll take a cue from your reply to my earlier post!

Earlier I reiterared what Monergist stated TO MY UNDERSTANDING of his post.

Re: this from you,

I'll take a different tack this time and am asking that you give a fuller explanation of what you mean rather than me deciphering it, OK?

 

Christ did not have a sinful nature. That is - He did not have a nature that was inclined to rebellion. He took on our fallen condition physcially but not our "desire" for sin and rebellion. The "NEW Creation" does not have that inner desire but lives In the christian along WITH the Christian's sinful nature that DOES desire evil (Romans 7). Christ was not "born again" His nature was like Adam's ALREADY in harmony with God and WITHOUT the love of rebellion.

So that means that even a newborn infant that dies in childbirth NEEDS a Savior!! (And indeed they have one!)

Actually - my claim is that the "Atonement PROCESS" as God defines it in Lev 16 STARTS with the sacrifice of the "Atoning Sacrifice" (1John 2:2) and then moves into the work of the High Priest (Heb 8-9) just as Christ did!

The part that is the "Atoning Sacrifice" is sufficient FOR ALL - but then the High Priestly work comes that applies full atonement to only the FEW of Matt 7.

In Christ,

Bob

 

All other stuff aside, what in John 8 contradicts Roman 10:17? I have the benefit of believing both ...

 

Well then we differ. But I think your logic above provides the answer as to why I am right.

Adam and Lucifer were ALSO created with NO sinful natures and they WERE tempted and they DID fail.

So simply "not having a sinful nature" is not some kind of iron clad way to say "can not be TEMPTED".

So while I agree with you that Christ was in fact TEMPTED -- (really TEMPTED) - He did not ALSO have a sinFUL nature (a nature full of sin that actually DESIRED to rebell against God).

Mankind NEEDS salvation for TWO reasons.
#1. We have sinFUL natures - full of SIN, desiring EVIL, desiring rebellion from birth.

#2. WE actually COMMIT sin.

BOTH of these problems REQUIRE a Savior to fix.

Christ did NOT need a Savior!! He did not have EITHER of the problems listed above but coming in the FORM of fallen humanity and in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh He WAS tempted and yet HAD NO sin (not FULL of sin, not sinFUL, not a sinner)!

And WHAT was he tempted with in Matt 4??? (Turn STONE into BREAD!!). That "can" only be a temptation to one who HAS the power to CREATE life which is the CREATOR ALONE (contrary to the hopes of evolutionists).

He was TEMPTED by the very fact that HE WAS God and as such -- turning stone into bread to satisfy extreme hunger was a VERY REAL possibility.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Atoning Sacrifice (1John 2:2) was sufficient for all - but in the Heb 8-9 High PRiestly work that follows (accoring to the Day of Atonement teaching of God in Lev 16) the Atonement is completed only for the saved - the FEW of Matt 7.

If we ignore His High Priestly "TYPE" work in fullfillment of the ANTITYPE predictions of Lev 16 - then we have Calvinism's limited atonment completed at the Cross.

I prefer to to just hand that one over to them.

"New Favorite"?? I thought Pastor Larry was an old timer on these boards!

Yep that is the Arminian Future Scenario I posted a while ago.

Agreed!

However I would argue that mankind is fully "depraved" by virtue of his sinful natur alone. And that it is only the Drawing (John 12:32) and the convicting power of the Holy Spirit (John 16) that restrains him AND that enables him to choose life.

I think we are pretty close on that one since you basically have mankind sinning as soon as humanly possible and at that point being depraved.

In Christ,

Bob