Deuteronomy 29

Not sure who you want to hear from here, J.D. but.....

The Israelites were persistently unrepentant, refusing to be faithful to their side of the covenant, so Moses gave clear warning of severe discipline to be expected. Their hearts were made unable to understand, their eyes unable to see the truths of God! This spiritual blindness will continue with Israel until God in the future removes it from them as told in Rom. 11.

Reminds me of a few verses in Proverbs:
He who covers his sins will not prosper, But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy! Prov 28 : 13
Happy is the man who is always reverent, But he who hardens his heart will fall into calamity. Prov 28 : 14

He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck will suddenly be destroyed and that without remedy! Prov 29: 1

 

I had a friend, years ago, who walked in confusion and dismay, even though the Lord had shone him mighty and wondrous things. He still sank deep into depths of despair, depression, anger, misapplication of spiritual truths ~~ because he continued to wallow in the flesh, God did not open up his understanding of the Good News, of the peace that could be his, that he could be the beneficiary of God's promises. If he had simply turned his nightmare life over to God, God would have softened his heart, opened his eyes and ears, created in him a glad witness to all that God had done and was doing and would do.

I lost track of him, years ago. The last time I saw him he was still wallowing.

 

Are you serious? Or are you just trying to goad the free-willers into having to deal with this verse? It won't work - I've referred to this verse dozens of times and it hasn't made any difference.

 

I see, so you're implying the Lord was blindly leading them???

 

Just what it says.



HankD

 

Best to let Bible explain Bible, isn't it?

In Hebrews we have the answer:

"And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast.
So, as the Holy Spirit says:

'Today, if you hear his voice
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, "their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways."
So I declared on oath in my anger,
"They shall never enter my rest."'

See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.'
Hebrews 3:6b-13

The Israelites who had not been given eyes to see and ears to hear the truth of God had purposely rejected the EVIDENCE of God, preferring the lie (see Romans 1). Every man has that choice. If you want the truth, you will be given the ears and eyes to perceive it. But if your heart, by your own volition, turns away from the truth, and thus from God, you will be given what you ARE seeking: the lie.

 

Anybody know how someone is supposed to want what he cannot see or hear or perceive?

 

Not seeing, not hearing, not perceiving are the results of a person hardening his heart, not the cause.

 

I figured you'd say something like that, but Deuteronomy 29 says that not seeing, not hearing and not perceiving are the results of the LORD not giving a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear. Letting the Bible explain Bible is great, but you're trying to make the Bible explain away Bible, and that ain't so good.

 

OK, so explain Hebrews 3, please.

 

OK, but I predict that you won't like it.

First off, let's let Hebrews 3 explain Hebrews 3:

"For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief." - Heb 3:16-19

So Hebrews 3 is speaking of those who died in the wilderness and did not enter the promised land, while Deut. 29 is speaking of those who survived the wilderness and did enter the promised land. Whatever one passage says about one group of people does not disprove or contradict or explain away what another passage says about a different group of people.

Both Deut 29 and Heb 3 are correct. The old generation could not enter in because of their unbelief. The new generation could not see or hear or perceive because God had not given them hearts to do so. Both are true and neither passage addresses the question of "which comes first".

 

It seems to be that a person wants to know God's Truth and exactly what He meant and said in Scriptures instead of being interested in traditional teachings that are no more Scripture based than there is a man on the moon.

If you truly desire to know the Truth then God will give you the eyes to see and the ears to hear. The Holy Spirit is capable and willing to lead us into ALL Truth if we are just willing to endure sound doctrine.

 

If you truly desire to know the Truth, then God has already been at work transforming you and renewing your mind. I agree, the Holy Spirit is capable and willing to lead us into ALL Truth, and that it does take the willingness to endure sound doctrine. Whether that willingness is our own, or inspired by the Holy Spirit is another question.

 

It's a combonation. The Holy Spirit doesn't force Himself onto you. We must be willing to allow Him to work in our lives. The Holy Spirit doesn't force us into Scripture. He doesn't force us to sit and endure sound doctrine.

Discipleship is a combonation of the believer dying to self and allowing the Spirit to work.

 

Ah, but who is being spoken to in Hebrews but those who are, indeed, already in the Promised Land? They are being told not to be like their forebears in the wilderness. Would you have us believe that the generation to originally conquer the Promised Land was different from both the generations before and after it in terms of God's dealing with people?

 

Of course not. I simply state that what Deuteronomy 29 says of the generation that entered was true, and what Hebrews 3 says of the previous generation which did not enter does not negate that truth.

 

I sort of agree. I just don't know the mechanics of how it works for the believer, and I don't think scripture explicitly states how it works. It's hard for me to decide based on personal experience, because all my experience of searching scripture for the real truth, regardless of whether or not the truth strikes me as pleasant, is one of being motivated to do so. I don't know if that motivation comes from me, or from the Spirit, but if I had to guess, I'd say it came from the Spirit and not me. But that's just my personal gut feel.

I do know from experience that the Spirit does change our motivations. Like I explained elsewhere, I prayed for a heart for Israel, and overnight I went from not caring a whit about Israel to being passionate for Israel and the Jews. That's God, not me. Now - I know who gave me the passion, but what motivated me to pray? I don't know.

 

I would completely agree that the Spirit motivates us, but we have to act on the motivation. Nothing that is gold, silver or precious stones comes from us, we just have to obey whether it be to let the Spirit teach us Truth or whether it be dying to self to allow the Spirit to live out the manifested life of Christ within our members.

It all comes from the Spirit, but is credited to our account as if we did it ourself. That's the amazing thing about God's grace!