Did God Create Evil and Sin for His Glory?

[Arminius]

What our Calvinist threadstarter accuses God of is utter blasphemy. Satan is the author of his sentiments. These are truly doctrines of Devils.

I know it is hard for Calvinists to understand what children can, but it goes like this:

God = good

Satan = bad.

That goes over their head every time.

Greetings everyone , here is a topic I am sure will get things rolling ! But I believe its a very important matter, and reveals how much we believe God is sovereign and in control of everything

God IS NOT "in control of everything" that is obvious from Scripture and observation. He gave authority of the earth to man, and Adam yielded it to satan, who our Lord called THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD three times in John's Gospel, and who is called "the god of this world", and of whom it is said the whole world lies in his power, and of whom it is said he has a seat, power and authority, and he will give it to the beast one day. That is why the Lord is CALLING OUT a people for His name. We are called out of this mess. It is run by the Devil and doomed for destruction. One day the Kingdoms of this world WILL BECOME the Kingdom of out Lord and or His Christ, but until then, the Devil and man are in rebellion to God, and most of what happens on planet earth every single day is not what God desires, nor is he in " control".

The Calvinist idea about "the Sovereignty of God" is another myth that slander the gracious, loving, merciful character of our Father in heaven. He IS NOT "Sovereign". He is first and foremost FATHER. Our Lord did not teach us to pray "Our Sovereign, who art in heaven, controlling everything according to Thy good pleasure". Our Father. That revelas A LOT about what the Lord is really like, and the family unit is the greatest human illustration of what God is like, and how he feels towards His offspring, even the bad ones. No father creates children to kill them, and if he does even the unsaved say such a man is evil and put him in jail. But Calvinists would have us believe that the glorious Saviour is a sadistic child abuser who made billions of souls simply to damn them so he could show us how great he is. Gee, I am not impressed, I am repulsed, as any moral agent must be. Paul taught excommunicating blasphemers-1Tim 1:20. It is high time we purged the body of Christ of this blasphemy and the ones who refuse to renounce it.

 

[Dustin]

What our Calvinist threadstarter accuses God of is utter blasphemy. Satan is the author of his sentiments. These are truly doctrines of Devils.

I know it is hard for Calvinists to understand what children can, but it goes like this:

God = good

Satan = bad.

That goes over their head every time.



God IS NOT "in control of everything" that is obvious from Scripture and observation. He gave authority of the earth to man, and Adam yielded it to satan, who our Lord called THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD three times in John's Gospel, and who is called "the god of this world", and of whom it is said the whole world lies in his power, and of whom it is said he has a seat, power and authority, and he will give it to the beast one day. That is why the Lord is CALLING OUT a people for His name. We are called out of this mess. It is run by the Devil and doomed for destruction. One day the Kingdoms of this world WILL BECOME the Kingdom of out Lord and or His Christ, but until then, the Devil and man are in rebellion to God, and most of what happens on planet earth every single day is not what God desires, nor is he in " control".

The Calvinist idea about "the Sovereignty of God" is another myth that slander the gracious, loving, merciful character of our Father in heaven. He IS NOT "Sovereign". He is first and foremost FATHER. Our Lord did not teach us to pray "Our Sovereign, who art in heaven, controlling everything according to Thy good pleasure". Our Father. That revelas A LOT about what the Lord is really like, and the family unit is the greatest human illustration of what God is like, and how he feels towards His offspring, even the bad ones. No father creates children to kill them, and if he does even the unsaved say such a man is evil and put him in jail. But Calvinists would have us believe that the glorious Saviour is a sadistic child abuser who made billions of souls simply to damn them so he could show us how great he is. Gee, I am not impressed, I am repulsed, as any moral agent must be. Paul taught excommunicating blasphemers-1Tim 1:20. It is high time we purged the body of Christ of this blasphemy and the ones who refuse to renounce it.

Typical free-willer argument. You err greatly, my friend. I want to know what you do with texts like Romans 9, and all the Psalms that speak of God's sovereignty. I want to know what you do with Ephesians 1. Read all of that and dare to tell me that God is not soveriegn. In all honesty, you need to take the Word of God as the Word of God. Up to this point, I have NEVER heard of anyone claiming to be a Christian that denies that God is in control of everything.

I'm at a loss.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[Arminius]

I gave you Scriptural reasons. Do you deny that THE DEVIL is called 'THE god of this world"??? And what does that mean? And whatis it that he is THE "god' of??? Oh yes THIS WORLD. You simply do not believe the Bible, but follow calvin instead. Do you deny that Satan is a "prince"? And what exactly did our Lord say THREE TIMES? The prince OF THIS WORLD! You deny this?

The term FREE-WILL is a Bible term. The term "sovereignty of God" is NOT. You have never met someone who does not beleive God is in control of everything??? Most don't believe that! And he IS NOT, unless you believe that the babies that are aborted all over this nation is God demonstrating his "control". Actually it demonstrates his LACK of control. And you forget in Romans One where the Lord GIVES MEN UP to their depraved lusts. What does that mean? it means He exerts EVEN LESS INFLUENCE ON THEM, and lets them do whatever they want--no control!

Our Lord is not a control freak, he is at heart a FATHER. That is who he is. He is not some insecure dictator that needs to PROVE his greatness by abusing His children. The Devil wants people to believe that about Him.

As for Romans 9, it sure doesn't teach Calvinism, if you'll just keep readng past verse 23! The whole unit--chapter 9-11 actually destroys all five points of Calvinism and in particular denies Once Saved always saved. The topic is the nation of Israel and God's right to bring the messiah from it and yet reject that same unbelieving nation, just like he used Pharoah to bring about a purpose, yet rejected him. Nothing hard there.

 

[Dustin]

I gave you Scriptural reasons. Do you deny that THE DEVIL is called 'THE god of this world"??? And what does that mean? And whatis it that he is THE "god' of??? Oh yes THIS WORLD. You simply do not believe the Bible, but follow calvin instead. Do you deny that Satan is a "prince"? And what exactly did our Lord say THREE TIMES? The prince OF THIS WORLD! You deny this?

The term FREE-WILL is a Bible term. The term "sovereignty of God" is NOT. You have never met someone who does not beleive God is in control of everything??? Most don't believe that! And he IS NOT, unless you believe that the babies that are aborted all over this nation is God demonstrating his "control". Actually it demonstrates his LACK of control. And you forget in Romans One where the Lord GIVES MEN UP to their depraved lusts. What does that mean? it means He exerts EVEN LESS INFLUENCE ON THEM, and lets them do whatever they want--no control!

Our Lord is not a control freak, he is at heart a FATHER. That is who he is. He is not some insecure dictator that needs to PROVE his greatness by abusing His children. The Devil wants people to believe that about Him.

As for Romans 9, it sure doesn't teach Calvinism, if you'll just keep readng past verse 23! The whole unit--chapter 9-11 actually destroys all five points of Calvinism and in particular denies Once Saved always saved. The topic is the nation of Israel and God's right to bring the messiah from it and yet reject that same unbelieving nation, just like he used Pharoah to bring about a purpose, yet rejected him. Nothing hard there.

You contradict yourself all over this post. You deny that God is sovereign and controls all things, then you go talking how God hardened Pharoh's heart according to His own good purpose.

You sound like an open theist.

Indeed, you should read the book of Romans again, the text itself refutes your argument. Quite simply, you don't know what you're talking about.

God controls all things, a simple read of the Bible will show you that.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[beloved57]

arminus says

God IS NOT "in control of everything" that is obvious from Scripture and observation.

you are a fool sir...:tonofbricks:

 

[beloved57]

Johnp . . .

If then we are calling sin a thing. . . and we are considering this abstract thing created . . . Then by corallary, would God have created Love?

And if God created Love . . . and God is Love then is God created?

Have you been smoking crack ? :tonofbricks:

 

[Arminius]

Beloved posted:

you are a fool sir

And you are in danger of Hell fire sir. Perhaps you should start obeying the Bible and fear the Lord who says if you call your brother a fool, you are in danger, despite what your lying doctrine of security in sin tells you.


Dustin, you make empty assertions, and cannot prove anything. i asked you questions based on Scripture and you refuse to answer BECASUE the moment you do, your viewpoint collpases. Calvinists take the 5th whenever they are cornered.

Calvinsm is the mostest satanic of dcotrines ever. They are the Doctrines of disgrace.

 

[johnp.]

Hello El_Guero.

If then we are calling sin a thing. . . and we are considering this abstract thing created . . . Then by corallary, would God have created Love?

It is easier if we say that God allowed sin to occur to accomplish His purpose then to claim that God created sin for His purpose.
The problem still exists. Love must also be a thing according to the definition of thing. 3 any fact, quality or idea, etc that can be thought about or referred to.

Could He have created sin for His purpose? I think that interpretation is remotely possible, but doubtful.

Rom 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Could He have allowed sin to happen for His purpose? I think that interpretation is more likely.

Allowing man to choose causes God to be not Sovereign in that choice. God IS NOT "in control of everything" Like Arminius says in post #21.

john.

 

[Dustin]

Beloved posted:


And you are in danger of Hell fire sir. Perhaps you should start obeying the Bible and fear the Lord who says if you call your brother a fool, you are in danger, despite what your lying doctrine of security in sin tells you.


Dustin, you make empty assertions, and cannot prove anything. i asked you questions based on Scripture and you refuse to answer BECASUE the moment you do, your viewpoint collpases. Calvinists take the 5th whenever they are cornered.

Calvinsm is the mostest satanic of dcotrines ever. They are the Doctrines of disgrace.

No sir, I gave you texts, you have refused to read them. You're the one making openly unbiblical statements, while claiming to make Scriptural arguments. At this point, I don't have anything to prove to you as you still haven't proved from Scripture that God is NOT sovereign. Prove to me from the Bible that God isn't sovereign. Prove to me that God is NOT in control of all things, including Satan and the exceeding wickedness of the wicked.

Read the book of Job, if you want more material, read the last 3 chapters of Job and tell me something in this universe is out of God's control.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin



Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

[Arminius]

Dustin, i have presented Biblical FACTS, asked you questions based on them, and you "stands mute".

 

[tragic_pizza]

Arminius, what's being offered is not Calvinism, at least not orthodox Reformed Calvinism.

Sin is not a product of creation, but of lack. Lack of relationship to the Creator, lack of a proper perspective upon Creator and creation (placing self on one's throne rather than God), etc. Sin is not creative; sin is destructive.

The leading Reformed theologians would argue stridently against sin being created by God; rather it is the product of man's disobedience. The most serious, honest of we Reformed will fully acknowledge God's sovereignty and confess that we hold in tension the question of how that sovereignty and man's obvious free will are reconciled.

 

[johnp.]

Hello tragic.

The most serious, honest of we Reformed will fully acknowledge God's sovereignty and confess that we hold in tension the question of how that sovereignty and man's obvious free will are reconciled.

God is Sovereign and man is responsible. These two facts have been lost by Calvinists. Calvinism jumps the problem of who has the last word on sin by stating positively that God predestinated men to salvation and reprobation. Sin is only a secondary problem.

john.

 

[beloved57]

tragipz says

The leading Reformed theologians would argue stridently against sin being created by God; rather it is the product of man's disobedience.

Mans disobediance is a product of the Divine Decree, so God is still first cause ! Too bad that unbelieving leading theologians do not see that.

 

[beloved57]

arm says

And you are in danger of Hell fire sir. Perhaps you should start obeying the Bible and fear the Lord who says if you call your brother a fool, you are in danger,

First of all , I do not consider you my brother in the Lord, not until you repent from your blasphemies and believe the truth !

Dustin, you make empty assertions, and cannot prove anything. i asked you questions based on Scripture

Please, the man has showed you scripture , you reject scripture...If God does not open your heart to the truth, you can be showed all the scripture in the world and you will still believe a lie :tonofbricks:

Calvinsm is the mostest satanic of dcotrines ever. They are the Doctrines of disgrace.

The doctrines of grace are the gospel of Gods grace, both the same thing!

acts 20

24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. = The doctrines of the sovereign grace of God !

His own personal testimony reveals Gods sovereignty of Grace !

acts 26

12Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,

13At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.

14And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

16But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

19Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:


In acts 9

15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:


eph 3

7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Paul preached a gospel of Gods sovereign effectual grace !

Another theme of the grace paul preached is election ! proof text

rom 11 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The election of grace is comprised of jew and gentile !

And it is this gospel and grace that you call satanic, you my friend are the one who is in danger of hell fire !:type:

 

[beloved57]

johnp says

It is easier if we say that God allowed sin to occur to accomplish His purpose then to claim that God created sin for His purpose.

It may be easier to say that God allowed, but , thats not true. To say God allowed something that He did not cause and decree is indicative of another first cause, which is dualism, I know you do not want to promote that do you ?

Also that is in contradiction to eph 1

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[tragic_pizza]

First of all , I do not consider you my brother in the Lord, not until you repent from your blasphemies and believe the truth !

May I draw your attention to the Terms of Service, which prohibists you from questioning other users' salvation, or accusing other users of being unsaved?

 

[DHK]

Dustin, i have presented Biblical FACTS, asked you questions based on them, and you "stands mute".

As per post #23 list the Biblical facts that you have presented and then show me them from Scripture. If you cannot, stop posting blasphemy on the board.

 

[Arminius]

Well DHK, I suffer from the deception of thinking that some who post here actually know their Bibles. We have one on here challenging me to produce the Biblical term "free-will". Do I really have to do that? Perhaps he should READ his Bible through until he gets to those places.

Post 21 alludes to many Scriptures, and if the Calvinists here actuall knew their Bible, they wouldn't be asking me to cite them for them. All references are well known Scriptures.

Here is post 21with the Scriptural references added by me in parenthesis FOR YOU TO LOOK YOU YOURSELVES IF YOU ARE UNFAMILIAR WITH THEM:

God IS NOT "in control of everything" that is obvious from Scripture and observation. He gave authority of the earth to man, (Gen 1, Psalms 8)and Adam yielded it to Satan, (Gen 3, Luke 4)who our Lord called THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD three times in John's Gospel,(John's Gospel) and who is called "the god of this world", (2Cor. 4)and of whom it is said the whole world lies in his power(1John 5), and of whom it is said he has a seat, power and authority, and he will give it to the beast one day(Rev 13-14). That is why the Lord is CALLING OUT a people for His name(Acts 15, 2Cor 6). We are called out of this mess. It is run by the Devil and doomed for destruction. One day the Kingdoms of this world WILL BECOME the Kingdom of out Lord and or His Christ(Rev 11, 15, 19), but until then, the Devil and man are in rebellion to God, and most of what happens on planet earth every single day is not what God desires(Gen 6, Matt 23:37-39), nor is he in " control".

The Calvinist idea about "the Sovereignty of God" is another myth that slander the gracious, loving, merciful character of our Father in heaven. (Matt 6)He IS NOT "Sovereign". He is first and foremost FATHER. Our Lord did not teach us to pray "Our Sovereign, who art in heaven, controlling everything according to Thy good pleasure". Our Father. That revelas A LOT about what the Lord is really like, and the family unit is the greatest human illustration of what God is like(Psalms 103), and how he feels towards His offspring(Acts 17), even the bad ones(Isaiah 1:18). No father creates children to kill them, and if he does even the unsaved say such a man is evil and put him in jail. But Calvinists would have us believe that the glorious Saviour is a sadistic child abuser who made billions of souls simply to damn them so he could show us how great he is. Gee, I am not impressed, I am repulsed, as any moral agent must be. Paul taught excommunicating blasphemers-1Tim 1:20. It is high time we purged the body of Christ of this blasphemy and the ones who refuse to renounce it.

James said:

1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God
cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust,
and enticed.
1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when
it is finished, bringeth forth death.
1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh
down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness,
neither shadow of turning.

The above passage TOTALLY REFUTES what the Calvinists have posted here--that God DOES tempt man with sin, that He is fact is the author if it.
James denies the whole blasphemous idea! He said to LET NO MAN SAY such things and I am obeying. The ideas of Beloved, Dustin and others are wretched blasphemy. Jesus is the author od FAITH, not sin-Heb 12.

Every GOOD GIFT comes down from heaven, and the Lord SHOWS NO PARTIALITY, unlike the "god" of Calvinism. Is sin a "good" thing? Is sickness a "good" thing? Is abortion, where little baby boys and girls are torn to pieces as they are assassinated a "good" thing? Is it "good" when people starve to death? If anyone answers YES, to such things, you are one sinful, immoral, demented person. Only the Devil himself would call such things good.

Good according to God's Word is what Jesus did:

10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with
power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were
oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Healing is good and from God, and sickness is bad and from the Devil. Period.

Now then DK, I have given you the citations, and could give MANY MORE to support my statements above. Those who foolishly charge God with sin, like Job did, magnify their guilt, for to whom much is given, much will be required.

The Devil is the FATHER of sin, not God. God is the God of life, all that pertains to sin and death came from the Devil, and entered human existence through Adam's fall. The Devil is the one who "controls" the unsaved until they get saved(Eph 2:1-4) and are translated OUT OF the KINGDOM(HELLO--THE DEVIL IS A KING!) of darkness, and into the Kingdom of His Son-Col. 1:13. I am amazed that what I am sharing, and consider Basic Bible doctrine, and which I knew well within months after getting saved, escapes these Calvinists here. Amazing and tragic.

 

[webdog]

Well DHK, I suffer from the deception of thinking that some who post here actually know their Bibles. We have one on here challenging me to produce the Biblical term "free-will". Do I really have to do that? Perhaps he should READ his Bible through until he gets to those places.

It would help to know that "freewill" is found near the beginning of the Bible, as blammo supplied, meaning you don't have to read "through" to get to "freewill". I'm still waiting for you to supply "free will", though...

The Calvinist idea about "the Sovereignty of God" is another myth that slander the gracious, loving, merciful character of our Father in heaven. (Matt 6)He IS NOT "Sovereign". He is first and foremost FATHER. Our Lord did not teach us to pray "Our Sovereign, who art in heaven, controlling everything according to Thy good pleasure". Our Father. That revelas A LOT about what the Lord is really like, and the family unit is the greatest human illustration of what God is like(Psalms 103), and how he feels towards His offspring(Acts 17), even the bad ones(Isaiah 1:18). No father creates children to kill them, and if he does even the unsaved say such a man is evil and put him in jail. But Calvinists would have us believe that the glorious Saviour is a sadistic child abuser who made billions of souls simply to damn them so he could show us how great he is. Gee, I am not impressed, I am repulsed, as any moral agent must be. Paul taught excommunicating blasphemers-1Tim 1:20. It is high time we purged the body of Christ of this blasphemy and the ones who refuse to renounce it.

I think the Baptist Board would do well in purging itself of not only yourself, but the heretical blasphemy that you bring with you.

 

[johnp.]

It is easier if we say that God allowed sin to occur to accomplish His purpose then to claim that God created sin for His purpose.

I was quoting El_Guero's post #20 beloved. I do not believe that but if you believe I believe that you are not listening to me.

Mans disobediance is a product of the Divine Decree, so God is still first cause ! Too bad that unbelieving leading theologians do not see that.

What do you mean 'Too bad'? God knows what He is doing doesn't He? Yes? Then it's not too bad is it? As for dualism, I've been called worse but never quite so wrongly I think. To meet a man that calls me an indeterminist is a wonder I am sure. I'll go check my sanity chip.

Also that is in contradiction to eph 1

[personal attack removed]
john.